Was L. Ron Hubbard Sexually Molested as a Child?

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
Post Reply
Hubbard's Mushroom
Posts: 8290
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:02 pm

Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:34 am

SM defending the cult of scientology?

That's just sick.

curiosity
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:56 am

Post by curiosity » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:41 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:
curiosity wrote:


He [LRH] could also have been having heterosexual fantasies--bisexuality cannot be ruled out.

You don't say! You mean that a man who was married more than once, had affairs with women and fathered several children may not have been exclusively homosexual?

Are you sure?
\
There's a saying, "It's the attraction, not the action." It is often difficult to know if a person with homosexual attractions who engages in heterosexual activities is a self-repressing homosexual who overcompensates by exaggerated heterosexuality, or if such a person is a bisexual. If your guess is that Hubbard was bisexual as opposed to homosexual, I would not argue against that theory.

Hubbard came from a generation when admitting to homosexual attractions, even to oneself, was taboo, and such men were often married and had children. (In fact, it still happens today even in our more tolerant culture.) Such "heterosexual" relations are rarely successful for the long-term, and multiple failed heterosexual relationships can be evidence of homosexuality, although other causes are certainly common, too. If we are to believe Kinsey, then sexual orientation for most people is more of a gradient scale than an absolute either/or.
curiosity wrote:

Thompson must have come to realize that Hubbard was an especially sexually-stimulated kid, and he must have known that talking Freudian sexual theory with such a youth would have an arousing effect. A very common tool of the pedophile/pederast is to begin a sexual assault by getting the victim sexually aroused, and that can easily be done through words by just talking about sex even in a “scientific” context. I cannot prove that this was Thompson's motive for talking Freudian sexual theory with Hubbard, but as a theory it cannot be ruled out since it is so unusual, and against most social convention, for adults to engage in sexual discussions of this kind with other people's 12-year-old children.

Maybe it's just me, but I have always found Freudian theory anti-erotic, improbable and dull as ditchwater. Just as a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, a bored adolescent is sometimes just a bored adolescent writing in his diary the two revealing and unambiguous words, 'was bored.'

If you think that discussing Freudian theory with a twelve year old would be titillating to either the boy or yourself, you have a very active imagination, maybe overactive.
There’s no question that Hubbard was interested in Freudian theory. You may find it deadly dull, and I probably would too if I took the time to read it, but Hubbard clearly did not. He talks about Freud regularly in his Dianetics and Scientology output, and he references Freud quite pointedly at the end of Mission Earth.

As I said in my post, I cannot prove that Thompson’s intent was to sexually stimulate a young Hubbard by talking Freud with him. That would depend on how it was discussed. Boys at that age start becoming easily aroused as they enter puberty. It is the age of embarrassing spontaneous erections, nocturnal emissions, and in some cases, frequent masturbation, which are all normal things. It does not take much to trigger an arousal: we hear about the “raging hormones” of teenagers all the time.

I am just pointing out that it is odd for an adult to talk Freudian sex theories with someone else’s 12-year-old son who has entered that phase of life. But maybe it was done to help Hubbard. Maybe Thompson became a father figure who was having birds-and-bees talks with Hubbard and used Freudian theory as the basis. Maybe Hubbard’s parents were happy for this to happen because they figured that Thompson, being an expert in scientific sexual theory, could explain things much better to their son who had an embarrassing masturbation issue. I don’t rule out these possibilities.

But… Mission Earth tells us that Hubbard’s reaction to all of this was revulsion, and an attitude that these theories promote perversion (rather than boredom). This is what causes me to be concerned about the manner and context in which Hubbard was taught Freudian sexual theory as a preteen/teen by Thompson. It is one clue that makes the molestation theory viable in my mind, even if not definitively proven.

Hubbard's Mushroom
Posts: 8290
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:02 pm

Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:57 pm

The deliberate actions taken by an adult to form a trusting
relationship with a child, with the intent of later having sexual
contact is known as child grooming. The act of grooming a
child sexually may include activities that are legal in and of
themselves, but later lead to sexual contact. Typically, this is
done to gain the child's trust as well as the trust of those
responsible for the child's wellbeing. Furthermore, research
has shown children are less likely to report a crime if it
involves someone that he or she knows, trusts, and cares
about. Additionally, a trusting relationship with the family
means the child's parents will be less likely to believe any
potential accusations.

Examples of grooming activities:

* - Taking an undue interest in someone's child.
(having a "special" friend)

* - Giving gifts or money to the child for seemingly no
apparent reason.

* - Taking the child on outings, away from protective adults.

* - Showing pornography to the child.
(illegal in many jurisdictions)

* - Talking about sexual topics that are not age-appropriate.

* - Invading the child's privacy. (i.e. walking in on him/her
in the bathroom)

* - Hugging, kissing, or other physical contact even when the
child does not want this attention.

* - Allowing the child to get away with inappropriate behavior.

* - Talking to the child about problems that would normally be
discussed with adults.

- http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Child-grooming

SuzanneMarie
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Post by SuzanneMarie » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:55 am

curiosity wrote:There are two theories being debated here:

1. That Hubbard was gay/bisexual.

2. That Hubbard was sexually molested as a child, likely by Commander Thompson.

It is possible that both theories are true. That one is true but not the other. That neither is true. It is important to keep the theories distinct, because obviously a person can be gay without ever having been sexually molested, and vice versa.

I believe that the gay/bisexual theory is strong. As people get older, inhibitions often break down. Hubbard wrote the Mission Earth "deckology" near the end of his life and let his pederastic gay fantasies take full flight. Heterosexuals do not focus on fantasies like that, especially in such detail.
If LRH had been gay or bisexual, he would have written about heroes and heroines who were the same way. He would have presented them in a sympathetic light.

In Mission Earth, the hero and heroine, and their families, friends and allies are heterosexual.

It's the villains and their stooges and victims who are involved in rape, prostitution, pederasty and gay sex.

Hubbard's Mushroom
Posts: 8290
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:02 pm

Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:16 am

The hypnotist caused what to rise?

++++++++++Sacred Cult Scripture+++++++++++++

The hypnotist works on nothing but confusion. He will have
some small boy stand in a narrow door-way pressing out,
with his hands held down at his sides, and pressing out on
the door frame. Then he will have the boy step away, and
into the room, and he will say, “Your hands will now rise.”
Of course the residual muscular tension that has built up will
cause his hands to float up in the air willy - nilly. The child
thinks, “What happened to me I no longer control myself.”
The hypnotist can then implant (into this now completely
unresistive child) any suggestion he desires ... “You are now
a dog.” And the boy will bark.

— L. Ron Hubbard
Lecture 24 June 1952 Technique 88: Motion & Maybes

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

User avatar
J. Swift
Posts: 10214
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Los Feliz, California
Contact:

Post by J. Swift » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:27 am

SuzanneMarie, let's look at a bit of Hubbard's throbbing romp through homosexual fascination in his Battlefield Earth decalogue, a series that could be renamed, Paean to Penises. I don't care if LRH was a gay; what matters was his hypocrisy and attitude towards other gay men and women that has been perpetuated by the Scientology Master Race Cult.

As to your notion that if Hubbard had been gay he would have been sympathetic to his gay and transgendered characters, that is simply naivete on your part. Hubbard was at a level of self-hate towards his sexuality and transferred his self-hatred into his books and characters. Hubbard reveled in sexual perversion throughout BF and then, at the end of the series, denounced it all as perversion and killed off all of the gay people. Thus, in Battlefield Earth, just as in his Admissions, Hubbard writes both a confessional and a rejection, i.e. in both works he admits what he is only to deny it and affirm that he will henceforth no longer be the person he is. The two works are the literary bookends of gay man who lived an extraordinarily accomplished, yet deeply repressed and almost wholly evil and deceitful life. Think of a paltry, adulterated version of Cecil Rhodes who was the centerpiece of a Mind Control Cult of Personality and you have LRH. Such is the complexity of the Dark Genius known as L. Ron Hubbard.

These quotes come courtesy of Curiosity:
All quotes are taken from the first hardcover edition of the Mission Earth 10-volume series: To start out with, the main character is a scheming psychologically-conflicted male spy named Soltan Gris who tells the story from a first-person perspective.

The actual hero of the story is Jettero Heller who has qualities Hubbard liked to envision in himself: Heller belonged to a group of combat engineers who were known as the daredevils of the [space] Fleet.(v. 1, p. 10). Hubbard lets us know that Heller was a tall, very good-looking fellow, extremely well built.(v. 1, p. 23). Jettero’s living quarters had been decorated by other people in an exquisite (v. 1, p. 77) manner with rugs that were collectors’ items, and the whole place harmonized together with beautiful taste.(v. 1, p. 77).

Jettero is described this way by Soltan Gris: “He was very good-looking, even in sleep, which is unusual. He was a very masculine fellow but he was pretty, too.” Later Gris says of Heller, “Yes, he was quite a figure. He looked like some big woods God. Come to think of it, he resembles that statue in the Voltare, Hey! I thought, what the Devils is the matter with me, I’m no man-lover!”(p. 154-155). Later a young doctor says to a naked Jettero who is lying on an examination table, “you are certainly extremely well built. And equipped [meaning penis size].’ Adds Gris, “And it was true, unfortunately, what he said of Heller. He was a very muscular, well-proportioned athlete and he was very well equipped.” (v. 1, p. 492).

Although Heller is portrayed as 100% hetero and has a female love interest (the Countess Krak), at one point he is brought into an expensive New York whorehouse, and the following conversation takes place: “Now, this place is full of good-looking women, said Vantagio, and a good-looking kid with muscles like yours will have them swarming at you! Do you have boys here?” said Heller. “Cripes no! exploded Vantagio.” (v. 2, p. 245). The story never explains why Heller asks about the whorehouse having boys, unless I missed a reference earlier. During this same episode, the story reveals that Heller may have only been a teenager, or was underage, at least according to the perception of the people in the whorehouse, so the prostitutes are told not to touch Heller: “Now listen,” said Vantagio, “raising his voice to be heard, he’s underage as you can plainly see. He’s jail bait!” (v. 2, p. 246). Heller is also referred to on the same page by some characters as a young boy and far too young for their [i.e., the prostitutes’] general taste.(v.2, p. 246). We therefore have Hubbard ascribing admirable sexual qualities to a probable 16 or 17 year-old, or at least someone who looked to be that age to others.


[As an aside, let me point out that David Miscavige was cute as a teenager if you look at the picture of him by Hubbard during a filming. If I recall correctly, Miscavige once said that he had been picked by surprise to be part of Hubbard’s crew at Gold when he was that age. (His parents were Scientologists and would no doubt have been thrilled at the honor of their son being chosen to be so close to their Commodore). Miscavige’s pretty looks and smaller-than-normal stature would have made him look even younger than he was, and the kind of youth that would be attractive to a man with that kind of interest. This is not to say that anything sexual necessarily happened between Hubbard and Miscavige, but it might indicate that Hubbard enjoyed having a pretty youth like that around. Also, as I recall, Hubbard wrote or said somewhere that he had developed memory-burying techniques better than any possessed by psychiatrists or those who did pain-drug-hypnosis. What I am about to say is sheer speculation and there is no proof that I know of, but is it possible that Hubbard might have sexually abused young male Sea Org members and used techniques to bury their memories of it? After reading Mission Earth, I have to wonder.]

Anyway, back to Mission Earth: One frequently recurring character is Too-Too who is introduced this way: “Endow [a male character] had a weakness: pretty boys! These two boys were nicknamed ‘Too-Too’ and ‘Oh Dear.’ Their real names are Twolah and Odur. They fell in love, one with an elderly male professor of cellology, the other with the dean of males.They were eminently fitted for my purpose: they were very pretty. I would shortly wipe the amusement from their girlish faces.” (v.1, p. 274)

The two boys are given a mission by the conniving Gris: “You will pretty yourselves up and display yourselves so that each one of you, by turns, becomes his beloved.” (V. 1, p. 275.) Gris blackmails them into their roles, which is what Gris says Earth psychology is all about: ”Blackmail and extortion.” He then goes on, there are exact states and phases in all boys and males. It says so right in the Earth textbooks. First they are oral passive, then they are oral erotic, then they are anal passive after which they become anal erotic. This is followed by what is called ‘latency’ and finally genitalia are arrived at. So these two boys were fixated in the development stage of anal erotic.V.1, p. 276. The boys are not happy about their mission, QUOTE: “Blubbering. More blowing. Finally Too-Too said, ‘But I hear he [Endow] is too big! [meaning penis size] Yes, I know, you poor thing. Here is some grease.’. 1, p. 332.

When the two boys return from one of their missions, one of them makes it clear that Lord Endow probably had sex with him: ‘The minute he saw me, he said, ‘Oh, how darling!’ Then he said, your trousers seem a little tight. Come into my bathroom so I can’ (v.3, p. 177) Later Gris says of the boy, He looked smug, the way homos will. I hate homos. You can’t trust them.(v. 3, p. 178) The joke is that Gris is unknowingly in love with a male transvestite as will be discussed below. Another minor character is introduced who is also used as an unwitting tool of Gris. He is a big hulking man who was disciplined for molesting small Turkish boys at least a half a dozen times. (v. 3. P. 185). Gris wants to film him sodomizing Too-Too for blackmail purposes: “There was a sudden screech from Too-Too! A curse came from the big bird, an order to lie still. I curled my lip in disgust as Too-Too began to moan. Then there was an explosive curse from the big bird. Too-Too screeched in ecstasy. Then I hard a scramble and a loud kiss! I opened the door. Too-Too was standing there with his arms around the big brute. (v. 3, p. 186-187) After it is over, Gris remarks how the brute kept pawing Too-Too, who wasn’t complaining.(v. 3, p. 187) Too-Too continued to drool even after the man left. (v. 3, p. 187).

Volume 3 introduces a transvestite character, Utanc. She is a Turkish dancing girl that Soltan Gris has purchased as a sort of slave girl/singer/dancer/companion. The running joke in the story is that Soltan thinks that this really is a woman, but the reader figures out that it is a man whose true sexual interest is in two little boys that are her servants and with whom she likes to share baths. Hubbard devotes 35 consecutive pages to Gris and Utanc (v. 3, pp. 34-69). Gris is wildly smitten with her and her beauty: “the nakedness in between [her jacket and pantaloons] was alive!” (v. 3, p. 41). “Her stomach muscles bunched and writhed and her hips began to grind! O, my Gods! It was enough to drive a man MAD!” (v.3, p. 41). Utanc performs a sensuous dance, and Gris declares, “I had never before in my life been so aroused.” (v. 3, p. 42). Finally, after Utanc convinces Gris to buy her some expensive gifts, she services him sexually. Understand that this is a gay sex scene between two men, one of whom is a transvestite: ‘No, no, she whispered. There is no need for me to udnress. I am too shy. This is your night and your pleasure’
“She kissed me on the mouth! I felt like I would faint with pleasure! Her tongue pried my lips apart and sought the inmost reaches of my mouth. She sucked my willing tongue out and her lips drew upon it and her teeth lightly held it. I was going into a daze of pleasure. (v.3, p. 57).

Utanc kisses other parts of Gris’ body, and finally reaches his genitals: ‘Darling, darling,she was whsipering. And then, ‘The mouth is everything.’ She kissed down my thighs. Suddenly all the blackness around me was a vortex, pulling me in as though I were being swirled right down, helpless with sensuous pleasure. I floated suspended in joy amongst the stars. While lightning seemed to flash across the whole universe.” (v. 3, p. 58)

That was not the end of it. She got Gris to climax a second time: “And her mouth once more began its journey down my body to culmination in sublime ecstasy. It seemed to me that never before in my life had I ever had sex.Nothing, absolutely nothing in Heavens or on Earth had felt that good before!” (v. 3, p. 59) Despite this, Utanc continues to enjoy her privacy with the boys, and Gris listens in through a bug in her room. Utanc sings to the boys about them washing her, kissing and hugging her, and Then we will go in the bedroom, “And I’ll teach you more lovely games.” (v. 3, p. 253). Once in the bedroom she sings another song of their little feet on her stomach, and then words that apparently describe what Utanc would do to the boys, which sounds like deep sexual penetration followed by climax?:

“Get it in, get it in, deep, deep, deep.
Up you go, up you go, bloom, bloom, bloom.
Now you come, now you come, boom, boom, BOOM!”
(v.3, p. 254)

Gris then wonders, “What in blazes was going on in there? I could hear some little squeals. Laughter? Delight? They surely weren’t squeals of pain! Too cheerful. More like ecstasy? Delight. It was delight.”(v. 3, p. 254). In a later episode, she sings to the boys, “You may be small, But oh, you’re good. I would eat you, If I could. Why should hunger, Be in fashion, When you’re there, To slake my passion?” (v. 4, p. 282-283). This is followed by rustling of bed sheets and squeals of delight. The interesting aspect to all of this man-boy sex in Hubbard’s book is that all of the boys and teenagers who are sexually involved with the men are portrayed as strongly desiring such. This is made evident when Utanc’s true identity as a man is finally revealed to Gris, who vomits at the discovery. Utanc is really Colonel Boris Gaylov of the KGB. (v.8, p. 103) Gris finally undersands, It seemed that Gaylov had made the two little boys into catamites [boys used for sexual purposes], and each night and sometimes in the day had practiced many sexual perversions with them to satisfy his lust..it seemed that what the little boys were upset about was that they weren’t getting it anymore, now that Utanc had disappeared.The two small boys said that unless their mothers let them go find Utanc they were going to run away and find other men to sleep with, and if they were prevented from doing that they were going to kill themselves the very first chance they got!(v. 8, p. 137). The Too-Too character was also promiscuous with men. Lesbian sex scene/orgy v. 6, p. 26-36. It seems that Gris often winds up having sex with gays, male and female.

Another interesting character in the story is Teenie: a promiscuous teenage girl who is taught sex by lesbians, and who eventually starts her own escort service with teenage males. Teenie is also promiscuous and wants sex with adults. (See v. 6, 285-287). She keeps trying to seduce Gris, including by spreading her knees apart with no underwear underneath. “She had too-big lips.”(v. 6, p. 317).

She told Gris about a school psychologist who had a lot of very mentally sick boys in the school. They were classified as oversexed. And he used to line them up in his office and go down on them [i.e., perform oral intercourse] to cool them off. And every day or two he’d get an overload of cases and he’d send and get me excused from class so I could come in and help. He’d stand and watch. There were so many of those boys sometimes that I could hardly get my breath from one before another had to be done. It was a fast clinical line, let me tell you. And some of those boys were fifteen and sixteen and pretty foamy. You just couldn’t help swallowing! (v. 6, p. 321)

Teenie is a significant character throughout volume 7, and she befriends a young man named Madison who only desires sex with this mother. Although Gris rebuffs Teenie’s sexual advances, she manages to get him in positions in which he appears to be sexually attacking her. These are secretly photographed, and the photos are used to blackmail him into participating in a campaign aimed at de-homosexualizing homos.(v. 7, p. 56-57). One blackmailer tells him, And you will do your part or go to a Federal pen and be raped daily by the male inmates.(v. 7, p. 57). Teenie makes another reference to going down on boys.(v. 7, p. 60). Gris interviews the evil psychologist/psychiatrist who participated in these acts. He tells Gris, “Why would I want a little girl to go down on me when I have my hands absolutely full of young boys that have to be converted to homos? Why would you use girls to do that when you’ve go so many boys to do it?” (v. 7, p. 67)

A musical group is called the Hoochi-Hoochi Boys,which is a sexualized term. (v.7, p. 279) Even though Hubbard revels in gay and kinky sex in the book, he has his positive characters say how disgusting it all is. This perverted planet!cried the Countess Krak. It’s just as if they never heard of normal sex!(v. 8, p. 138). This makes me as a reader wonder what kind of sex Hubbard had been exposed to and had engaged in during his lifetime, since the types of sexual escapades he enjoys detailing in his book are not within the experience of most people. Hubbard had a history of being part the occult OTO with its homosexual rituals, and J. Swift has presented an interest hypothesis about Hubbard’s youth in the company of Snake Thompson, etc. There may have been good reason why Hubbard would so vigorously cover up his homosexuality/bisexuality even after societal attitudes had liberalized, he had perhaps engaged in many homosexual acts that would be highly disreputable, even in the minds of many gay people. Also, victims of sexual abuse are often very ashamed of the experiences even if they were not at fault.

In Mission Earth, Gris is confronted with the dilemma of proving that his is not gay when the Countess Krak threatens him with prosecution for homosexuality under the laws of the galactic Confederacy: “How the Hells did you prove that you were not a homo? It was almost impossible to prove that you were not anything. The only evidence you could collect was that you were things.” (v. 8, p. 138). This may have been the formula that Hubbard used to cover his homosexual interests, i.e., he engaged in a hyper-heterosexuality, and maybe also some Scientology celebrities rumored to be gay? Hubbard’s formula is, “prove that you are heterosexual -- don’t try to disprove that you are gay.


Volume 9 has more of Too-Too. This time Teenie and other characters are on a galactic ship. Teenie is making money by selling Too-Too’s sexual services to the crew. The Madison character sees:
“There, face-down on the bed, was a pretty-looking boy. He had makeup on his face. A beatific smile was on his lips. A crew member was standing there, getting back into his clothes. The man leered at Captain Bolz and, buckling his belt, swaggered out. [To Teenie] But what are you doing with that boy?’ ‘Oh, him? He’s just about the most nympho catamite you ever did see. And when he’s hopped up on marijuana he can take it all day and all night, too! He’s a sponge! Kind of cute, too. You want a piece?’”(v.9, p. 42)

Teenie also explains how she taught Too-Too a few little tricks he could do and when he got back here he pleased Lord Endow no end. The goofy old (bleepard) went absolutely delirious over Too-Too.(v. 9, p. 67). Teenie becomes elevated to the title Queen Teenie, and there is a long ceremonial scene involving a youth gay orgy starting v. 9, p.74 and going to page 91. “Small groups of boys had been coming in the vast front door. In the main they were handsome or pretty, and a few wore powder and paint. They appeared to range in age from eight to fifteen, but one couldn’t really tell with these long-lived people. There must be two hundred of them here by now!” (v.9, p75-76). There was marijuana smoking.

Teenie tells these young male students of hers that she has a graphic illustration of the naked male body, and once again, there is a reference to oversized genitals: Now, I must admit that the artist has made the (bleep) too large for my taste.’ She turned to them and smiled a too-big smile. There was pleased laughter at her joke.’ But somehow getting around that point” more laughter!v. 9, p. 79). Teenie then calls for a volunteer to engage in a demonstration. Instantly fifty hands went flailing toward her.[Again, Hubbard’s continuing theme, common to boy-lovers, that the boys are eager for sex.] Teenie made her choice: A boy who appeared to be about fifteen slide eagerly under the red ropes. He was quite pretty, with a clear white skin.(v.9, p. 80) Two boys then stripped him naked. Teenie touched the boy near his spin and got an instant response which is clearly an erection because when she then touches a spot on the lower outside right thigh, THE RESPONSE DEFLATED!(v.9, p. 80, capitalization in the original). She touched the boy a couple of more times, getting another response which GREW BIGGER AND STAYED! (v. 9, p. 80, capitalization in the original). She then touched a spot at the lower center of the boy’s pubic hair. His eyes rolled up, his chin thrust forward, he gave an ecstatic groan. HE (BLEEPULATED!) (v. 9, p. 81, capitalization in the original). The audience gasped and groaned, then wildly applauded. She touched him again, got another response and another (bleepulation.)"

The boy has a third erection, but this time he simply drops to his knees and vows grateful allegiance to Teenie. All of the boys then smoke marijuana. Some performers perform a song that Hubbard provides the lyrics to, among them, “Oh, a soldier’s life is the life for me/For it is the men that I enjoy/The best there is, I find, is boy!/The enemy I do not mind/Can go on in my behind All passionate and hard as rocks/Eager to slide in my buttocks/And let me (bleep) and (bleep) in thee!v.9, p. 84).

The scene does not end there. Teenie chose another volunteer. This time it is a very handsome boy who looked to be about sixteen who came in striding with a lordly, springing gait. His clothing shimmered in all colors of the rainbow.(v.9, p.87). Too-Too is also chosen to participate, and Teenie starts lecturing them about the important role of the sphincter muscle and how the boys can learn to make it go round and round.(v. 9, p. 89). She then has Too-Too demonstrate this skill by having the 16-year-old held firm by other boys so that could not move at all, his erection inside Too-Too, and Too-Too performing the technique on him. The 16-year-old’s face was wreathed in ecstasy.(v. 9, p. 90). The teenager finally let out a scream of ecstasy. (v. 9, p. 90). The other boys have become so aroused by all of this that they fell upon one another like wolves in heat. The music and marijuana and the tableaux, the pulsing colored lights, had driven them made with lust that no longer could be restrained.(v. 9, p. 91). The theme of large penis size is also brought out in a story thread in which Gris gets his genitals enlarged, and there are one or two scenes with women in which the women ooh and ahh over it, again putting the attention on the man. In v. 9, p 256, a female character says, "I was a bodyguard for the richest whorehouse madam on all Mistin. I’m telling you, there was five hundred guys, half-naked, handsome as Gods, standing there in front of that palace just begging to (bleep). And they were the heaviest hung birds I ever seen."

Hubbard makes it sound as though gay pederasty is a foundation of Freudian theory, and this might make us wonder what Snake Thompson or someone else had taught Hubbard as a youth about Freud, perhaps to get into the young Hubbard’s pants as hypothesized by J. Swift? In v.10, p 292-3, a demented doctor says to a male character, “You will NEVER find any remission of symptoms unless you ride roughshod over your repression and find yourself a nice young man and practice, unremittingly, fellatio…I am giving you pure Freud. Your insanity can be cured only by a life of dedication to making love only to young boys and men, orally, of course.”

At the end of Mission Earth, Hubbard seems to become a moral preacher about all of this by speaking through his characters. Not only do all of the gay characters and catamites get killed off, but one character repeats similar thoughts to those of Countess Krak:” Oh, sex and sex and sex! The place to get the REAL information is EARTH! It is a paradise of wallowing, rampant sex perversion! Wonderful!” (v.10, p. 312). Again, as a reader, I have to wonder: Is this all just satire? (Yes, maybe.) Is Hubbard unusually prudish since most people do not engage in the kind of sexual scenarios? Or did Hubbard have a very rough sexual history, perhaps not all of his choosing when he was a youth, and this resulted in his attitudes that he could never change? Whatever the answer may be, his moralism is repeated in v.10, p. 314 in a poem composed by Hubbard ODE TO EARTH?:

And who, pray tell, would show aversion
To lovely butt and mouth perversion?
Sex that converts girls to (bleepches).
Did I say sex? Oh, you excel!
Sex is the thing you do so well!
Never has such concentration
Been leveled at self-gratification!

Anyway, those are the requested quotes that I found during a quick skim-through. To see how they are integrated into the story, people should, of course, read the books themselves. And again, it is not that I object to this literature or that Hubbard wrote it. I am only objecting to that fact that he appears to never face up to his own feelings and possible history in a mature way. As a result, he created an organization that is dangerous because if it achieves the political power it was programmed by Hubbard to achieve, it would take away the civil rights of a large number of people only because of their personalities, put them into permanent quarantine, including the group of people that he clearly belonged to, namely, gays and bisexuals. Comparisons to Hitler are admittedly tiresome, but it is so apt in this situation, because Hitler was also a closet gay who advocated quarantine of social undesirables, including other gays. Hitler copied what Hubbard had done in Hubbard’s alleged past life as Cecil Rhodes: they both built concentration camp systems. Scientologists need to grow up. We can still have compassionate understanding for Hubbard and for the events in his life that may have caused him to manifest the attitudes that he did, but that is not the same as going along with his agenda.
/////
Last edited by J. Swift on Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:05 am, edited 12 times in total.
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com

curiosity
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:56 am

Post by curiosity » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:31 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:
If LRH had been gay or bisexual, he would have written about heroes and heroines who were the same way. He would have presented them in a sympathetic light.

In Mission Earth, the hero and heroine, and their families, friends and allies are heterosexual.

It's the villains and their stooges and victims who are involved in rape, prostitution, pederasty and gay sex.
This would only be true if Hubbard was openly gay or bisexual. Many closeted and self-loathing gays/bisexuals moralize against homosexuality and present themselves as crusaders against sexual immorality. These are the Ted Haggerts of the world.

And Os, thank you for your courage in discussing your family history. I hope that there has been healing and forgiveness.

Hubbard's Mushroom
Posts: 8290
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:02 pm

Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:38 pm

++++++++++++Sacred Cult Scripture++++++++++++

THE CRIMINAL ACCUSES OTHERS OF THINGS WHICH HE
HIMSELF IS DOING.

—L. Ron Hubbard
HCOB 15 September 1981 The Criminal Mind
© 1991 L. Ron Hubbard Library

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

User avatar
J. Swift
Posts: 10214
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Los Feliz, California
Contact:

Post by J. Swift » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:08 pm

SuzanneMarie wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I have always found Freudian theory anti-erotic, improbable and dull as ditchwater. Just as a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, a bored adolescent is sometimes just a bored adolescent writing in his diary the two revealing and unambiguous words, 'was bored.'
Suzie Engram, a few notes here on your comment:

1. You seem to be implying that LRH wrote the words "was bored" in his diary as it relates to his having listened to Commander Thompson explain Freudian theory.

2. Your comment implies that you have special access to LRH's childhood diaries. Otherwise, how could you know what LRH wrote? Do you have such access?

3. Assuming that you have such access, did Hubbard actually spend only one afternoon on the topic of Freud with Commander Thompson only to comment in his diary that he was bored? Did Hubbard hyperinflate one afternoon with Thompson into an expertise on Freudian theory? I ask because it was Hubbard's wont, as well as CoS', to hyperinflate LRH's resume in all areas. For example, CoS long maintained that LRH set world records in gliding. After being challenged to produce proof, CoS now admits only that LRH set one record for the longest glider ride to date over one particular city, and even then the Cult will not name the city, the date, or the air field. So did Thompson discuss Freud in general terms with the young LRH on one afternoon only to have LRH write that he was bored?

4. Hubbard's claim that he had mastered the basics of Freud's work at age twelve under the tutelage of Thompson was a crucial part of Hubbard's claim as an adult that he was an expert in the mind and human behavior. If we as critics can show that LRH spent only one dull afternoon with Commander Thompson discussing Freud, then two things happen: We have falsified Hubbard's claim to have been a twelve year old expert in Freudian theory and Hubbard is shown, once again, to have been a pathological liar. If Scientology admits that there was only a one afternoon discussion, then it can pull Hubbard from the jaws of a compelling theory that young Hubbard was systematically groomed and then sexually molested by Commander Thompson. Finally, if it was just one afternoon, then Snake Thompson would seem to be cleared of the charges that he was a child molester. So SuzanneMarie, can you please elucidate on your claim that Hubbard wrote "was bored"? There is a great deal at stake here, so please ask Danny Sherman to avoid his tendencies to bloviate and prevaricate about LRH and to rather just give us the facts.

5. Hubbard's Freud claim goes to his work to create and perpetuate the myth that he had a superhuman childhood. For example, American Caucasian teenagers in the 1920's who could only speak English were not allowed into secret Chinese lamasaries, invited to spend time with Mongolian bandits, or allowed to meet the "Last Magician" in an unbroken line of succession from the Court of Kubla Kahn. Despite Hubbard's claim of one extraordinary trip to China, the facts are more prosaic: He was chaperoned by an Officer of the British Legation. Why would such an Officer allow a teenage boy into the company of bandits and non-Christian lamas and an Chinese occultic magician? Hubbard's invented story of a glorified trip to China is shown to be nonsense when we see this part of his diary that has been made public:
The problem with China is that there are too many Chinks... they smell of all the baths they didn't take.
.

There is the possibility that LRH was never molested but was rather a pathological liar who, as an adult, created a story about his extraordinary boyhood tutelage on Freud as taught by a Freudian mental health expert. Freud was a Psychiatrist. It is ironic that Hubbard claimed a childhood expertise in Psychiatry as part of his credentials as an adult. Of course, Hubbard also claimed to have a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics and a 22+ WWII combat medals when he never served a day in combat.

*****
Suzie Engram, the ball is in your court. Was Hubbard molested as a child, was he a pathological liar at a young age, or was it both? Did his sexual abuse as a child drive him to become a pathological liar? Did Hubbard lie in order to create an image of himself as superhuman in order to compensate for his deep psychological damage, shame, and repressed homosexuality?


/////
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com

User avatar
RealityWillTell
Posts: 3103
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:05 pm

Post by RealityWillTell » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:39 pm

SuzanneMarie wrote:If LRH had been gay or bisexual, he would have written about heroes and heroines who were the same way. He would have presented them in a sympathetic light...
Well there's a statement that has absolutely no basis in reality, especially for those of Hubbard's era and older.

Obviously you had not heard about J. Edgar Hoover who outwardly was very anti-gay and made no bones about keeping files on homosexuals he came across (or who were famous) and harassing them whenever given the chance. Yet Hoover himself was found out after his death to have had a "special" companionship with Clyde Tolson (his second in command at the Bureau). Edgar not only lived with Tolson for the rest of his life (after his mother died in '38), he went everywhere with him (vacations included) and also left Clyde everything when he died.

So yes Hubbard could have been a closet gay and for appearances overcompensated in trying to show the world he was heterosexual (while demonizing the rest of the gay community).
Image
.

User avatar
Fanboy The Great And...
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:19 am
Location: your pocketses *gollum*

Post by Fanboy The Great And... » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:35 am

RealityWillTell wrote:
SuzanneMarie wrote:If LRH had been gay or bisexual, he would have written about heroes and heroines who were the same way. He would have presented them in a sympathetic light...
Well there's a statement that has absolutely no basis in reality, especially for those of Hubbard's era and older.

Obviously you had not heard about J. Edgar Hoover who outwardly was very anti-gay and made no bones about keeping files on homosexuals he came across (or who were famous) and harassing them whenever given the chance. Yet Hoover himself was found out after his death to have had a "special" companionship with Clyde Tolson (his second in command at the Bureau). Edgar not only lived with Tolson for the rest of his life (after his mother died in '38), he went everywhere with him (vacations included) and also left Clyde everything when he died.

So yes Hubbard could have been a closet gay and for appearances overcompensated in trying to show the world he was heterosexual (while demonizing the rest of the gay community).
Or what about former Florida Republican Senator Mark Foley, who was on a committee to cut down on child abuse and was removed from office when it was found he sent texts to underage teenage boys asking about their penis size and whether they'd jerked off that morning?

Oddly enough, he had monetary ties to Scientology, too...
"Of course he went by Ron; who would have
taken a guy named Lafayette seriously?"

"Scientology is only about convincing the able they're crippled,
and lying to the crippled with the promise of making them able."

SuzanneMarie
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Post by SuzanneMarie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:58 am

J. Swift wrote:SuzanneMarie, let's look at a bit of Hubbard's throbbing romp through homosexual fascination in his Battlefield Earth decalogue,
The series of ten novels set in the modern world was 'Mission Earth'.

'Battlefield Earth' was a single novel set in the far future in which mankind was battling extinction. I'm just guessing, but you haven't read either of these, have you? Are you one of these Lerma followers who believes that you might get hypnotized if you actually read a whole LRH book? Or you just can't confront reading anything unless another critic has predigested it for you first?
J. Swift wrote: As to your notion that if Hubbard had been gay he would have been sympathetic to his gay and transgendered characters, that is simply naivete on your part. Hubbard was at a level of self-hate towards his sexuality and transferred his self-hatred into his books and characters. Hubbard reveled in sexual perversion throughout BF
Um, you really have not read this book. Didn't even skim through it, either.
J. Swift wrote: ... and then, at the end of the series, denounced it all as perversion and killed off all of the gay people.
What book did you read? It doesn't sound familiar...one of the Mission Earth gay characters (Utanc) was sent to France to convince the French that he was Joan of Arc reborn, and his underage gay lovers accompanied him. Another gay character (TooToo) went to the alien Capitol with Queen Teenie. What gay characters took a dirt nap? Are you talking about all the (mostly not gay) people who died when Teenie's island erupted and sank?
J. Swift wrote: ...works are the literary bookends of gay man who lived a .... deeply repressed and almost wholly evil and deceitful life.


Ahem! Indulging in autobiography, are you?

User avatar
J. Swift
Posts: 10214
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Los Feliz, California
Contact:

Post by J. Swift » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:51 pm

Suzie Engram, you continue to engage in personal attacks on me and change topics in your continuing pattern of evasion. I understand that you must do this when cornered. You must lie, evade, and attack. Your tactics are transparent and speak to the way in which the Cult of Scientology has programmed you. You do not want to address the issue at hand because you cannot confront the possibility a gay L. Ron Hubbard who had deep psychological damage due to childhood sexual molestation. Hubbard is your God. You worship Hubbard. Therefore, you drink deeply of the Cult Kool Aid in order to see LRH as having been perfect, as having been the reincarnation of the Buddha.

BTW, Suzie, thanks for the correction. The LRH "dekalogue" was indeed Mission Earth and not Battlefield Earth. BE was an LRH book that John Travolta, a not-so-closeted gay Scientologist made into one of the worst movies ever. Travolta wasted $44,000,000 on Battlefield Earth; I simply misstated a book title. Travolta is an OT with alleged power over MEST. I make no such claim for godlike powers, so misstating a book title, and then publishing a correction, is within the human standards of journalism. Furthermore, I did not read, or skim, Mission Earth. However, I did read the reviews and Hubbard's fixation with sex stands out in the reviews. That is why I asked Curiosity, who read all ten books, to post his review of the sexual scenes from ME here at OCMB, which he did. One example of Hubbard's lurid homosexual fascination:
She told Gris about a school psychologist who had a lot of very mentally sick boys in the school. They were classified as oversexed. And he used to line them up in his office and go down on them [i.e., perform oral intercourse] to cool them off. And every day or two he’d get an overload of cases and he’d send and get me excused from class so I could come in and help. He’d stand and watch. There were so many of those boys sometimes that I could hardly get my breath from one before another had to be done. It was a fast clinical line, let me tell you. And some of those boys were fifteen and sixteen and pretty foamy. You just couldn’t help swallowing! (v. 6, p. 321)
Suzie Engram, that is quite some foamy LRH prose; were you able to swallow it when you read Mission Earth? How do reconcile LRH's turgid, softcore gay porn with his claim that he alone rose above the group bank?

*****
Now, Suzie, back to my questions. You made an interesting comment about an LRH diary entry that demands an answer. I restate my questions here:

SuzanneMarie wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I have always found Freudian theory anti-erotic, improbable and dull as ditchwater. Just as a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, a bored adolescent is sometimes just a bored adolescent writing in his diary the two revealing and unambiguous words, 'was bored.'
Suzie Engram, a few notes here on your comment:

1. You seem to be implying that LRH wrote the words "was bored" in his diary as it relates to his having listened to Commander Thompson explain Freudian theory.

2. Your comment implies that you have special access to LRH's childhood diaries. Otherwise, how could you know what LRH wrote? Do you have such access?

3. Assuming that you have such access, did Hubbard actually spend only one afternoon on the topic of Freud with Commander Thompson only to comment in his diary that he was bored? Did Hubbard hyperinflate one afternoon with Thompson into an expertise on Freudian theory? I ask because it was Hubbard's wont, as well as CoS', to hyperinflate LRH's resume in all areas. For example, CoS long maintained that LRH set world records in gliding. After being challenged to produce proof, CoS now admits only that LRH set one record for the longest glider ride to date over one particular city, and even then the Cult will not name the city, the date, or the air field. So did Thompson discuss Freud in general terms with the young LRH on one afternoon only to have LRH write that he was bored?

4. Hubbard's claim that he had mastered the basics of Freud's work at age twelve under the tutelage of Thompson was a crucial part of Hubbard's claim as an adult that he was an expert in the mind and human behavior. If we as critics can show that LRH spent only one dull afternoon with Commander Thompson discussing Freud, then two things happen: We have falsified Hubbard's claim to have been a twelve year old expert in Freudian theory and Hubbard is shown, once again, to have been a pathological liar. If Scientology admits that there was only a one afternoon discussion, then it can pull Hubbard from the jaws of a compelling theory that young Hubbard was systematically groomed and then sexually molested by Commander Thompson. Finally, if it was just one afternoon, then Snake Thompson would seem to be cleared of the charges that he was a child molester. So SuzanneMarie, can you please elucidate on your claim that Hubbard wrote "was bored"? There is a great deal at stake here, so please ask Danny Sherman to avoid his tendencies to bloviate and prevaricate about LRH and to rather just give us the facts.

5. Hubbard's Freud claim goes to his work to create and perpetuate the myth that he had a superhuman childhood. For example, American Caucasian teenagers in the 1920's who could only speak English were not allowed into secret Chinese lamasaries, invited to spend time with Mongolian bandits, or allowed to meet the "Last Magician" in an unbroken line of succession from the Court of Kubla Kahn. Despite Hubbard's claim of one extraordinary trip to China, the facts are more prosaic: He was chaperoned by an Officer of the British Legation. Why would such an Officer allow a teenage boy into the company of bandits and non-Christian lamas and an Chinese occultic magician? Hubbard's invented story of a glorified trip to China is shown to be nonsense when we see this part of his diary that has been made public:
The problem with China is that there are too many Chinks... they smell of all the baths they didn't take.
.

There is the possibility that LRH was never molested but was rather a pathological liar who, as an adult, created a story about his extraordinary boyhood tutelage on Freud as taught by a Freudian mental health expert. Freud was a Psychiatrist. It is ironic that Hubbard claimed a childhood expertise in Psychiatry as part of his credentials as an adult. Of course, Hubbard also claimed to have a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics and a 22+ WWII combat medals when he never served a day in combat.

*****
Suzie Engram, the ball is in your court. Was Hubbard molested as a child, was he a pathological liar at a young age, or was it both? Did his sexual abuse as a child drive him to become a pathological liar? Did Hubbard lie in order to create an image of himself as superhuman in order to compensate for his deep psychological damage, shame, and repressed homosexuality?


/////
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com

SuzanneMarie
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Post by SuzanneMarie » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 pm

J. Swift wrote: I did not read, or skim, Mission Earth.(SNIP nauseating comments about fellatio and cumguzzling).
J. Swift wrote: Now, Suzie, back to my questions. You made an interesting comment about an LRH diary entry that demands an answer. I restate my questions here:

SuzanneMarie wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I have always found Freudian theory anti-erotic, improbable and dull as ditchwater. Just as a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, a bored adolescent is sometimes just a bored adolescent writing in his diary the two revealing and unambiguous words, 'was bored.'
1. You seem to be implying that LRH wrote the words "was bored" in his diary as it relates to his having listened to Commander Thompson explain Freudian theory.

2. Your comment implies that you have special access to LRH's childhood diaries. Otherwise, how could you know what LRH wrote? Do you have such access?
No, it's a quote from yet another book you have not read, Russ Miller's Barefaced Messiah, in which he states that the most frequent comment in young LRH's diary is, 'was bored.' There, now you can quote Miller and pretend you have inside knowledge of LRH's diary as a Scientology expert!
J. Swift wrote: There is a great deal at stake here, so please ask Danny Sherman to avoid his tendencies to bloviate and prevaricate about LRH and to rather just give us the facts.
Ask him yourself. If I were Danny Sherman and you were pestering me, I'd block your e-mails. Is that why you can't inquire directly?
J. Swift wrote: ...the ball is in your court. Was Hubbard molested as a child,
You still have not presented any compelling or factual evidence of this, preferring to make inferences from his fiction which could just as easily support the contention that LRH was straight and disgusted by sexual abnormality.
J. Swift wrote: was he a pathological liar at a young age,
Oh-oh, you might have to do some reading in order to back this accusation up! Get crackin' on those books.
J. Swift wrote: Did his sexual abuse as a child drive him to become a pathological liar?
You have the cart before the horse. You need to present evidence that he was a liar of Baron Munchhausen proportions in youth first, then present evidence that he was a child victim of sexual abuse. You have done neither. You are are using the 'just allege it' tactic described by Vicki Aznaran in her Declaration regarding false testimony used by church critics.
J. Swift wrote: Did Hubbard lie in order to create an image of himself as superhuman in order to compensate for his deep psychological damage, shame, and repressed homosexuality?
Do most victims of child sexual abuse become a) pathological liars?
Do most victims of child sexual abuse become b) repressed homosexuals?
Are pathological liars and repressed homosexuals typically child sexual abuse victims?
Really, you need to present evidence that he was a) or b) before you ask these questions.
Quoting blue passages from his fiction just doesn't cut it. He could have learned about sexual abnormalities from reading Kraft-Ebing and case supervising pc folders of gay and lesbian pcs.
But I know you imagine that people only learn about things from first hand experience... :roll: or phone calls, or back channel colloquys,
that's why you keep badgering me about having comm lines with Danny Sherman, whom I do not know and have never communicated with in any way.

User avatar
'Alert'
Posts: 5219
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Bondi Beach
Contact:

Post by 'Alert' » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:10 pm

'Alert' wrote:SM... you'll never win nor defend something so abhorrant as scientology...no matter how hard you try to keep going at J. Swift.
SuzanneMarie wrote:If you think that discussing Freudian theory with a twelve year old would be titillating
Who's to say the Snake Thompson wasn't trying to groom LRH at age twelve?

After all, LRH bragged up being educated in Freudian theory by Thompson.

Wether you can confront it or not, hubbard's writi8ngs and ramblings are littered with vast indications that he was a sick and twisted/perverted human being.

I mean, how can you reconcile exteriorization by distance drilling (R2-24), involving tolerating a thetans genitals to your rectum?

In case you need reminding, toots....
The Creation of Human Abilities(R2.24) wrote:IMPORTANT: THE PRECLEAR MUST NOT BE PERMITTED TO USE MOCK-UPS IN THE MATTER OF WHAT DISTANCE THE PARTS OF THE BODY OR THE ROOM COULD TOLERATE TO A THETAN. THE AUDITOR WANTS THE ACTUAL PARTS OF THE BODY RIGHT WHERE THEY ARE AND THEIR TOLERANCE TO THE THETAN IN EACH CASE. AND HE WANTS THE PARTS OF THE ROOM RIGHT WHERE THEY ARE AND THEIR DISTANCE TO THE THETAN. THIS PROCESS IS NOT TO BE DONE BY MOCK-UPS. BUT IF MOCK-UPS APPEAR IN THE MATTER OF WHAT DISTANCE THE THETAN CAN TOLERATE TO THE PARTS OF THE BODY OR ROOM THEY ARE ALLOWABLE BUT ARE NOT ENCOURAGED. IF MOCK-UPS ARE USED IN THE MATTER OF DISTANCE OF THE OBJECTS TO THE THETAN, THE REALITY OF THE PRECLEAR WILL DECREASE MARKEDLY. THE PRECLEAR IS NOT BEING EXTERIORIZED FROM MOCK-UPS, HE IS BEING EXTERIORIZED FROM ACTUAL PHYSICAL UNIVERSE OBJECTS.
Image
"If anyone talks about a "road to Freedom" he is talking about a linear line. This, then, must have boundaries. If there are boundaries there is no freedom." - Dianetics 55

Post Reply

Return to “Opinions & Debate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 8 guests