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machwon
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Wichita, KS
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 Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:15 am Post subject:
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"The sheer scale of the event, as well as Jones' socialist leanings, led some to suggest CIA involvement"
...wat? 
DOES NOT FOLLOW
But since we're using Wikipedia as a source; what does it have to say about Scientology, Dianetics, and L. Ron Hubbard SM?
I never understood how Scientology rationalize using Wikipedia as a credible source. when it has almost nothing but negativism about Scientology and Hubbard.
| SM wrote: | The House Foreign Affairs Committee questioned Buford and then sealed the record.
Moron. |
And your point is because the record is sealed, it has to be a CIA job? Please. Also; you'd think someone as smart as you wouldn't result to idiotic name calling. It's sad and pathetic you've resorted to this. This shows you have no substance to bring to the conversation.
You've just lost
The game.
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SuzanneMarie
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:42 am Post subject:
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| machwon wrote: |
| SM wrote: | The House Foreign Affairs Committee questioned Buford and then sealed the record.
Moron. |
And your point is because the record is sealed, it has to be a CIA job? |
No, you were claiming it was a police interrogation I referred to, when it wasn't. You made a vapid remark about police always broadcasting their interrogations over the Times Square mega-tron, evidently an attempt at sarcasm.
I have not claimed that CIA had anything to do with Jonestown, but I did link to Bo Gritz's interview in which he claims to have known Special Forces/Green Berets who went into Jonestown after the massacre to wipe out witnesses.
And it was a massacre. About two thirds of the dead were slain, they did not drink poison. |
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Sea Horse
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 1965
Location: Clearwater Florida USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject:
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Suzie Engram thinks that US Special Forces and Green Berets are stupid enough to not check if everyone is dead... and finish the job if someone is still breathing.
Stupid troll is stupid... and thinks the rest of us smart cookies will believe her claptrap.
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We are the architects of our own lives. Design and build the life you want. |
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JohnS
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject:
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| Sea Horse wrote: | Suzie Engram thinks that US Special Forces and Green Berets are stupid enough to not check if everyone is dead... and finish the job if someone is still breathing.
Stupid troll is stupid... and thinks the rest of us smart cookies will believe her claptrap. |
Not only that, If what SuzanneMarie suspects about CIA involvement
at Jonestown is actually true, that very fact raises expotentially the
probability that scientology is also manipulated/controlled by similar
sources. It would make it more likely that she, herself is being
used/manipulated, not only directly by the cult, but also by the
the dark sinister forces that control the cult. |
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RedPill
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 1151
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:46 am Post subject:
exactly
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| JohnS wrote: | | Sea Horse wrote: | Suzie Engram thinks that US Special Forces and Green Berets are stupid enough to not check if everyone is dead... and finish the job if someone is still breathing.
Stupid troll is stupid... and thinks the rest of us smart cookies will believe her claptrap. |
Not only that, If what SuzanneMarie suspects about CIA involvement
at Jonestown is actually true, that very fact raises expotentially the
probability that scientology is also manipulated/controlled by similar
sources. It would make it more likely that she, herself is being
used/manipulated, not only directly by the cult, but also by the
the dark sinister forces that control the cult. |
There are debunkers who will go to any length to discredit any explanation that is not 100% conventional. There are also nut cases that will believe anything and everything is the result of their favorite boogyman hiding under their bed or behind a tree. Then there are those of us who take a critical look at things, think outside the box, and are willing to speculate as to what is true, attempting to find a scenario that takes into account all existing facts. These scenarios are as useful as they are good at predicting what will turn up next. Sometimes these scenarios work quite well and things become quite obvious, but only to those who are willing to look and learn.
Part of the dyed-in-the-wool debunketybunkbunk bunk spreader occam shmokkam horseshitistic thinking is to allow coincidence after coincidence after coincidence. Any detective, in trying to solve a crime, starts getting more and more suspicious the more coincidences turn up. For instance, a particular fone number turns up again and again in the fone logs of wives who have had husband's that died mysteriously of some sort of poisoning. All of the wives are named beneficiaries of large insurance policies. All of the wives went thru the same insurance agent. Ah, yes, all a total coincidence, I'm sure.
Now lets take a look at a POSSIBLE CIA/Scientology connection.
First, going back to the mid 70's, there was Operation Snow White, considered by some to be the largest intelligence operation penetration of various US govt. agencies in history. Is it reasonable to believe that this alone would at least get the Cof$ on the CIA's radar screen? Nah, just a bunch of conspiracy theory hogwash, according to the debunkybunks.
What does long time Scientologist who sued the Cof$ and won 8 million dollars, Larry Wollersheim, have to say about that? Something about a true believer OSA guy being potentially the best possible intel operative, being idealistically motivated instead of by blackmail or bribery? Nah, lets go debunketybunkbunkbunkybunk. See? It was swamp gas! Larry Wollersheim must have been drinking. More coincidences.
How about the fact that the Cof$ has tons of information, senstitive information, as part of their confessional folders, including the folders of celebs. Info that would make them subject to blackmail. Celebs that travel world wide and get to meet important people in foreign governments from time to time. Might that be of interest to the CIA? What about someone with access to those folders? What about an auditor to the high and mighty, might that auditor be of interest to the CIA? Hmmmmm ... debunkitybunkbunkobunk! Nah, it was the planet Venus, and anyone who thinks that the CIA might have an interest is clearly mentally off balance and should see a shrink and have his head examined.
Of course, the CIA has ALWAYS scrupulously stayed totally within the law, only operates overseas, has never tortured anyone, set up front companies, hypnotized anyone, worked with drug dealing gangsters, etc. CIA guys are ALWAYS the white hats and would NEVER consider using a cult to obtain information. We can ALWAYS trust the CIA to have our best interests at heart. Behind the veil of total non accountability and national security are men of unquestioned integrity who would never do anything wrong. They even help little old ladies cross the street from time to time. Everybody knows, there is no such thing as a conspiracy. Pay no attention to all those pesky prosecutors who put people on trial for conspiracies all the time. Or the historical record of Julius Caesar, how he ceased power, and what happened to him.
Pete |
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Sea Horse
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 1965
Location: Clearwater Florida USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:
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I spoke with someone who is ex-GO and ex-OSA and he/she said that this lie about CIA/Jonestown was invented long ago (at least two decades before now) in CofS and was the "story" promoted within the CofS back then.
I asked "Why bother? If Scientology wants to be seen as legitimate, and Jonestown was obviously a cult, why even bother to invent a conspiracy story. Why not just say 'That's a cult. We're a religion.' and leave it at that?"
He/she replied on the lines of "Why does CofS do any of the crazy things it does? No reason. It's just crazy itself."
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SuzanneMarie
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:35 am Post subject:
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| Sea Horse wrote: | | I spoke with someone who is ex-GO and ex-OSA and he/she said that this lie about CIA/Jonestown was invented long ago (at least two decades before now) in CofS and was the "story" promoted within the CofS back then. |
So Bo Gritz resigned his officers' commission in 1979 because:
a) He's been trying to provide a 'CIA Did Jonestown' cover story for CoS all this time?
b) He was offended because one of the Special Forces ops he trained wanted to use the N word in the title of his book about killing off Jonestown survivors.
c) He wanted to spend more time with his family...
http://www.whale.to/b/gritz1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_%22Bo%22_Gritz |
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RedPill
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 1151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:36 am Post subject:
OSA/GO lies
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| Sea Horse wrote: | I spoke with someone who is ex-GO and ex-OSA and he/she said that this lie about CIA/Jonestown was invented long ago (at least two decades before now) in CofS and was the "story" promoted within the CofS back then.
I asked "Why bother? If Scientology wants to be seen as legitimate, and Jonestown was obviously a cult, why even bother to invent a conspiracy story. Why not just say 'That's a cult. We're a religion.' and leave it at that?"
He/she replied on the lines of "Why does CofS do any of the crazy things it does? No reason. It's just crazy itself." |
Even if, with no knowledge of what actually did or did not happen at Jonestown, the Cof$ via the OSA or GO decided to concoct a story regarding Jonestown and the CIA, that IN AND OF ITSELF doesn't mean that the CIA was NOT involved in some fashion in Jonestown, nor does it preclude what Lt. Col. Bo Gritz said regarding Special Forces involvement there from being true. It comes down to who or what you want to believe. Personally, I don't believe that the CIA had Scientology in mind as the specific target to go after when doing Jonestown. This was what the GO wanted Scientologists to believe at the time and what I remember was specifically discussed back then.
On the other hand, seeing if they could get 900 people to commit suicide by cult brainwashing seems like something right up their alley, considering all of the stuff that they HAVE been invovled in and ADMITTED TO in the past, such as MkUltra. If someone were to read everything that the CIA WAS involved with, this is not a particularly far out speculation.
Pete |
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Sea Horse
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 1965
Location: Clearwater Florida USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:56 am Post subject:
Re: OSA/GO lies
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| RedPill wrote: | | Personally, I don't believe that the CIA had Scientology in mind as the specific target to go after when doing Jonestown. This was what the GO wanted Scientologists to believe at the time and what I remember was specifically discussed back then. |
Oh, I get it now. The purpose of spinning a tall tale is to get scios to be "more afraid". Scientology is always spinning conspiracy stories to enturbulate their membership and get them to "follow" even more (and blindly).
This happened during the Lisa McPherson Trust protests. Us "inside" didn't even know there was such a thing as LMT, an organized group. We were told that some millionaire who hated scientology had paid homeless and criminals to picket outside the Ft Harrison Hotel. FSO boarded up the front entrance, opened the side entrance, rented vans (like 8-12 person vans) to ferry people from building to building. We were instructed not to even LOOK at the people picketing, let alone talk to anyone.
Though that was about 9-10 years ago, the front entrance has never been re-opened. FSO has since purchased vans and more buses to ferry scientologists merely 1 block away between the Ft Harrison Hotel and the Coachman Building.
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machwon
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:49 am Post subject:
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I'd have to say this is probably the worst conspiracy theory I've heard since holocaust denial.
SM, I hereby forbid you from using wiki as a source of information until you agree that what it has to say about Scientology and LRH is completely true.
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Ewwwah!
http://jimjesus.com
(∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x)) = Scientology logic |
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RedPill
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 1151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:
Col. Gritz
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| SuzanneMarie wrote: | | Sea Horse wrote: | | I spoke with someone who is ex-GO and ex-OSA and he/she said that this lie about CIA/Jonestown was invented long ago (at least two decades before now) in CofS and was the "story" promoted within the CofS back then. |
So Bo Gritz resigned his officers' commission in 1979 because:
a) He's been trying to provide a 'CIA Did Jonestown' cover story for CoS all this time?
b) He was offended because one of the Special Forces ops he trained wanted to use the N word in the title of his book about killing off Jonestown survivors.
c) He wanted to spend more time with his family...
http://www.whale.to/b/gritz1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_%22Bo%22_Gritz |
I have Gritz's book, in hardcover, autographed, "Called To Serve". In it, he states that he resigned his commission in 1979, at a time when he could have easily made full bird Colonel and have been given an assignment as commander of a regiment, and probably easily go on from there to become at least a Brigadeer General, for one specific purpose ... to go to work for Ross Perot, a man of conderable assets, who was willing to privately fund Gritz in expeditions to rescue American POW's still in Vietnam or in some of the neighboring countries that fell to the communists afer we pulled out.
If you go back far enough, you might remember that following the fall of Saigon, the govt. vehemently denied that there were any living POW's remaining. Then, in 1979, a Marine held captive for 15 years very inconveniently escapes and shows up with reports of other POW's, corroborating live POW sightings by other witnesses. Of course, Bobby Garwood was then taken in front of a comm ev, er, oops, I mean a Courts Martial, and declared a supressive, oops, er, I mean given a dishonerable discharge, thereby dead agenting him, oops, er, I mean discrediting him, so nobody need believe his testimony about other POW'S, which, if he wasn't outright lying about, he was sadly mistaken, after having seen meteors, the planet venus, or swamp gas.
Anyways, according to Bo Gritz, that is why he left the Army, to rescue POW's still held.
Pete |
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SuzanneMarie
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:35 am Post subject:
Re: Col. Gritz
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| RedPill wrote: | | SuzanneMarie wrote: | | Sea Horse wrote: | | I spoke with someone who is ex-GO and ex-OSA and he/she said that this lie about CIA/Jonestown was invented long ago (at least two decades before now) in CofS and was the "story" promoted within the CofS back then. |
So Bo Gritz resigned his officers' commission in 1979 because:
a) He's been trying to provide a 'CIA Did Jonestown' cover story for CoS all this time?
b) He was offended because one of the Special Forces ops he trained wanted to use the N word in the title of his book about killing off Jonestown survivors.
c) He wanted to spend more time with his family...
http://www.whale.to/b/gritz1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_%22Bo%22_Gritz |
I have Gritz's book, in hardcover, autographed, "Called To Serve". In it, he states that he resigned his commission in 1979, at a time when he could have easily made full bird Colonel and have been given an assignment as commander of a regiment, and probably easily go on from there to become at least a Brigadeer General, for one specific purpose ... to go to work for Ross Perot, a man of conderable assets, who was willing to privately fund Gritz in expeditions to rescue American POW's still in Vietnam or in some of the neighboring countries that fell to the communists afer we pulled out.
If you go back far enough, you might remember that following the fall of Saigon, the govt. vehemently denied that there were any living POW's remaining. Then, in 1979, a Marine held captive for 15 years very inconveniently escapes and shows up with reports of other POW's, corroborating live POW sightings by other witnesses. Of course, Bobby Garwood was then taken in front of a comm ev, er, oops, I mean a Courts Martial, and declared a supressive, oops, er, I mean given a dishonerable discharge, thereby dead agenting him, oops, er, I mean discrediting him, so nobody need believe his testimony about other POW'S, which, if he wasn't outright lying about, he was sadly mistaken, after having seen meteors, the planet venus, or swamp gas.
Anyways, according to Bo Gritz, that is why he left the Army, to rescue POW's still held.
Pete |
Bobby Garwood's story is interesting in view of the fact that recent presidential candidate John McCain (also an exPOW) denounced him as a traitor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Garwood
USMC Lt. Col. Tom McKenney claims that he was sent to assassinate Garwood as a traitor, but decided he was innocent and the actual intent of the mission was to kill POWs who had been left behind.
Could the people responsible for this sort of cruel manipulation and murder (slaughter of POWs) have also been responsible for the Jonestown massacre?
No doubt in my mind. |
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Don Carlo
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 4591
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject:
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| The CIA needs full trials for all the provable illegal things they did, but CIA murder at Jonestown is utterly unprovable. Suzanne Marie, many Jonestown relatives claimed Jonestown was one big murder scene. The only one who really wanted everyone to die was Jim Jones, and his guards had lots of guns. People had to drink, or be shot. Some were more cooperative, others resisted and were killed, and a few escaped to tell the story. The eyewitnesses said nothing about CIA. The audio tape has Jones' creepy droning voice until the gunshot. |
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machwon
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject:
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| Don Carlo wrote: | | The CIA needs full trials for all the provable illegal things they did, but CIA murder at Jonestown is utterly unprovable. Suzanne Marie, many Jonestown relatives claimed Jonestown was one big murder scene. The only one who really wanted everyone to die was Jim Jones, and his guards had lots of guns. People had to drink, or be shot. Some were more cooperative, others resisted and were killed, and a few escaped to tell the story. The eyewitnesses said nothing about CIA. The audio tape has Jones' creepy droning voice until the gunshot. |
^^ This. The problem with this asinine conspiracy is there is absolutely no evidence what-so-ever that has been brought to the table. It's all speculation and appeal to fear. It's like debating a creationist. They point out insignificant or spurious holes in the story and somehow that proves that the whole thing is wrong and instead we should adopt a paranoid fantasy that the government is just trying to kill us all.
All they have dug up so far is This guy with a questionable record said someone told him this, or This guy with an even more questionable background only because the government wanted to discredit him said that. Disregard all the other empirical evidence that would disprove this; and believe these guys, because the official story is bland and boring in comparison to ours.
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(∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x)) = Scientology logic |
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machwon
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:
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and SM, please stop using wiki.
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard wrote: |
After the war, Hubbard met Jack Parsons, an aeronautics professor at Caltech and an associate of the British Intelligence occultist Aleister Crowley. Hubbard and Parsons were allegedly engaged in the practice of ritual magick in 1946, including an extended set of sex magic rituals called the Babalon Working, intended to summon a goddess or "moonchild." The Church says Hubbard was working as an ONI agent on a mission to end Parsons' supposed magical activities and to "rescue" a girl Parsons was "using" for supposedly magical purposes. In a 1952 lecture series, Hubbard recommended a book of Crowley's and referred to him as "Mad Old Boy" and as "my very good friend". Hubbard later married the girl he said that he rescued from Parsons, Sara Northrup. Hubbard also described Parsons as his friend in his Scientology lectures rather than a person he was investigating. Crowley recorded in his notes that he considered Hubbard a "lout" who made off with Parsons' money and girlfriend in an "ordinary confidence trick."
Sara Northrup became Hubbard's second wife in August 1946.It was an act of bigamy, as Hubbard had abandoned, but not divorced, his first wife and children as soon as he left the Navy (he divorced his first wife more than a year after he had remarried). Both women allege Hubbard physically abused them. He is also alleged to have once kidnapped Sara's infant, Alexis, taking her to Cuba. Later, he disowned Alexis, claiming he was not her father and that she was actually Jack Parsons' child. Sara filed for divorce in late 1950, citing that Hubbard was, unknown to her, still legally bound to his first wife at the time of their marriage. Her divorce papers also accused Hubbard of kidnapping their baby daughter Alexis, and of conducting "systematic torture, beatings, strangulations and scientific torture experiments." |
It's worth noting that SM backs the credibility of Wikipedia by her continued linking to various entries.
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(∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x)) = Scientology logic |
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