The Admissions of Mark C. Rathbun

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caroline
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The Admissions of Mark C. Rathbun

Post by caroline » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:47 am

Unofficial Transcript of Rathbun Interview wrote:Video source: http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... hbun.shtml

Part 3 The Lisa McPherson case

Reporter: I'm going to move ahead, ah, a few years down the line here to the late 1990's when ah, another landmark moment for the Church of Scientology: the Lisa McPherson case. Can you ah, just generally describe your role in that, in handling that case for the church?

Rathbun: Okay. My role in the Lisa McPherson case ah, began I guess a little bit earlier than the Lisa McPherson case.

I had left Scientology in ah, late '93, November '93, right after we got the exemption, about a year--about a month after we'd gotten tax exemption, because there was something, I sort of hung on, and had been working on for 9, 10 years, and got, okay?

Ah, shortly after that I had left.

David Miscavige persuaded me to come back. I went off to the ship in the Caribean that we have, to do training and get auditing services, which I really hadn't had a lot of in the 10-12 years I had been in Scientology.

1:00

When I was done with all that, I had come back to the Flag Land Base in the summer of '95.

And I was working for the RTC office at Flag under a woman named Angie who was in charge of that office. And basically she was David Miscavige's representative there. She was supposed to be handling all the technical quality aspects of the church there.

Um, sh, um, I had expressed some, ah, criticisms about the way she was handling some of the technical matters--the way she was coaching people on their communication drills and on how they handled their metering. And shortly after that Miscavige showed up to the Base, and I guess he heard I had been ah, saying such things and told me in no uncertain terms that ah, I'm not to be telling anybody anything, I'm supposed to be doing what she tells me to do.

2:00

You know I was the guy that blew the organization two years earlier, I'm supposed to follow her lead. He doesn't want me anywhere near him or on his lines, he doesn't want me bossing anybody around.

And um, so it was like, you know, it was pretty much keep your hands off of, you know, any involvement in any decision making.

So I was working on a whole program to um, um, rehabilitate the Class XII auditors, ah, at Flag because there was a lot of complaints from parishioners about their services.

And ah, in the course of this, I was walking through the Hubbard Guidance Center of the Fort Harrison, when all of a sud-- where it's a completely quiet area, everybody knows that who's been in Scientology for any long-- that whole, ah, huge floor it's all connected by ah, a common hallway, is a silence zone because people are having auditing sessions in each one of them.

I was walking through that one day and a door got kicked open and I heard this loud voice hollering in in, glee, ah, in the hallway. And I thought that was really odd and I went and inquired about what was going on and I went up to one of the Class XIIs and I said, "What's happening here?" And he said, "Oh, that's Lisa McPherson. She just ah, attested to Clear."

3:17

So, I just, even though I was told, I was not supposed to, you know, say anything to Angie, I went down to sa-, talk to Angie. I said, "You know, um, you've got a, there's somebody up in the ah, Hubbard Guidance Center, who just attested to Clear who looks to me to be on the verge of psychosis."

And she quickly reminded me that I'm not supposed to be having any say about anything, and you know, "keep your mouth shut." She said, "That's Lisa McPherson." She says, "David Miscavige is C/Sing and programming her case." And I'm reporting on it weekly." Like in other words, "Buzz off." To which I just went about my business and didn't think anything about it.

Well I guess about ah, 6 weeks later, or several weeks later, um, you know I hear that there's this incident, where, um, Lisa McPherson is, um, had ah, a psychotic break and is coming to the Fort Harrison.

And I inquired about that, like how can you have somebody coming to the Fort Harrison.

It was Angie or her direct junior, I think her name was Ricki, said, "well it's not a problem because COB, meaning David Miscavige, you know, has directed us on handling a type 3 at the Base just last May, because somebody went nuts in the middle of ah, one of the events that he does down there.

Reporter: What's a type 3?

Rathbun: A type 3 is a person who's had a psychotic break.

Reporter: Okay.

Rathbun: Okay. And ah, so a guy went type 3 in the middle of an event and he knew all about it and we handled the whole thing right here on the base and we reported the whole thing to him."

So I said, "Okay."

4:58 Ah, you know, "it's none of your business, I'm handling it."

So she'd already told me that she's been reporting on the case, weekly to him.

So I thought nothing of it.

I guess nine days later, something like that, she, Angie now comes to me, and says, Hey, you know, when you're doing a type 3 handling, what kind of sedative do you use if ah, if a sedative's required?" Like, "Is Valium, or, do you use something like that?"

I said, "Well, no, we usually -- I mean, I've seen type 3 handlings or participated in them for 20 years. And everybody always used chloral hydrate because it's the most mild, ah least narcotic sedative and it's very, very effective in getting somebody to sleep and that's the whole purpose of it. And I had, you know, that was the only, back and forth I had during that, that matter over there.

But I thought it was really strange because we're nine days into it. I said, "You're telling me nine days into it and you're looking for a sedative?

Tom. This is what you need to understand. On a type 3 handling, or a psychotic break handling, it's generally, you know, you've heard this thing about the person is put into isolation, right? Okay. That whole thing lasts a day, maybe two max. Do you understand me?

Reporter: Uh, huh.

Rathbun: In other words, if it goes beyond a day or two, there's something really weird going on. I've never seen it happen before.

Well, subsequently I learned that they've got her in a, in a, room where which is facing, ah, Osceola Avenue, and there's city buses going by, there's all this noise going, on. Ah, there's a whole chain of wild events, um, that were going on that just don't bear any resemblence to how you're supposed to do a type 3 handling. But I didn't know all that at the moment. It was only when I investigated it subsequently did I find that out

My point is it's all hush hush, "This is my, this is my matter, this is something I'm reporting up lines." Meaning to David Miscavige. Okay, so it's all her thing.

So I'm supposed to go off and continue doing things around Flag at that time which is, inspecting course rooms, helping people with their communication drills and their meter drills, ah, doing confessional auditing, with um, ah, the Class XII's who are the highest level auditors down there, and all that sort of thing.

7:18

One night I'm back at the ah, RTC office and she's doing up her daily report that goes up to Miscavige and ah, usually I would come in and sort of verbally debrief on what I did during the day and she'd integrate it into her report you know, "We inspected this many course rooms and we passed this many students and we did this many confessionals, and these guys are coming around like this and that and that."

Well that evening I couldn't do that because Angie was on the phone non-stop with other executives at Flag talking about McPherson um, because she'd been taken to the hospital.

And I guess ah, --So she wasn't even, you know she wasn't even ac- accessible to me because she was non-stop on the phone. When it, when it was all said and done though, and they found out that Lisa McPherson had died, it was, she rushed out of the room and go had to meet with other executives on the base so I didn't know what was going on.

All I knew is that in my position, I was supposed to investigate the next day and find out what happened.

Reporter: Okay, and, and, from, from, from, then on, ah, so you got pulled into the, the, McPherson case. Ah, and what were your duties throughout the rest of that, the case when it went to litigation and everything.

Rathbun: Okay. I'll tell you what happened. We ah-- the next morning, went to investigate what, what went on. It was a, it was like walking into a disaster area. There was ah, like 15 people -- 15 to 20 people who were, had been attendants.

And it was like walking into a, a flood scene or something. I mean they ah, they all looked devastated. [Ticking off their indicators on his fingers.] They were, they lacked sleep, some of them had scratches and bruises from getting hit by Lisa. Um, all of them were extremely emotionally distraught because each one of them put it on their shoulders that they had done something wrong.

Well, quite frankly everybody did something wrong because the whole thing was done wrong. I mean, you don't have 15 different people rotating in and out of a room with somebody who's psychotic. The whole idea of this is, is you -- of this isolation-- is, is you -- you don't have any external stimulii restimulating the person and getting him to set off again. If you have utter stillnessa and utter quiet, they tend to calm down enough that they can then communicate and you can do some auditing and then you can help bring them up and pull them out of the thing.

Tom, I've seen this work on a number of people over the years, all the way from my beginning days in Scientology.

It's really quite simple.

They have 15 people rotating in and out. She getting a different new stranger in the room every other day. They've got people in there cr- bawling their eyes out. You're not supposed to say a word! In fact you're not even supposed to be in the room. Okay? I mean I can't describe to you how 180 degrees diametrically opposed the handling of her was to what the scripture says is the way you're supposed to handle something like that.

Reporter: In fact you had a phrase for how it was handled. Um, a perfect storm, or--

Rathbun: I thought it was a perfect storm of, of incompetence and irresponsibility.

10:25 And I, and I and I say the irresponsibility and incompetence because --

[Speaking and gesturing authoritatively, counting bullet points on his fingers.]

The writings say that you've gotta have a complete, full medical examination. You've got to rule out that this person isn't in some kind of hidden pain. And it's not-- that it's the source of all this, okay?

You're not going to pull a person out of a wild area of spiritual and mental distraught if they're, in in excrutiating pain.

So a complete thorough medical examination is required. Okay? Never had it. They had a woman in there who was on staff who was a doctor who you later uncovered didn't even have a license and had lost her license for abusing medical prescription drugs, ah, who, who the C/S, who's the, really the person directing the whole thing -- he's assuming that she's done such, but there's no evidence that she's ever done, [pauses] done such.

And it's, but it's ah, it's a dueling match between Alain Kartuzinski the C/S and Janis Johnson the doctor.

Janis Johnson thinks, "Boy! I'm under the direct supervision of a Class XII, the top C/S at the Mecca of Technical Perfection. And he ain't telling me to do anything so I must be doing everything right." You understand?

And on the other hand, you've got Alain thinking, "Well nothing serious can actually happen here because I've got a bona fide doctor who's going in to see her every single day."

So each of them are pointing the finger at the- in the, in the other direction.

[Gesture: pointing left and right fingers at each other.]

Of all the people in the entire place, I mean we had maids who were, from Central America who couldn't even speak English, who spent a afternoon in there. To a one, each one of them felt res- fully responsible, for the result of that.

The only ones that didn't were Alain and Janis.

12:12 Now Ajain-- Alain ultimately did. But I don't know if Janis ever did. But do you understand what I mean by irresponsibility?

Reporter: Hm-mm.

Rathbun: They're looking -- they're pointing the fingers at one another, and they were the only on- only two who were doing that!

[Gesture: pointing left and right fingers at each other.]

Everybody else who had no responsibility really, cuz they were really at the, at the, at the, ah, the beck and call of Janis and Alain-- they feel fully responsible.

So that's the state of affairs.

12:35

Um. I know early on that same day while I was doing all that, Angie said she had to go, because she had to go handle the folder, which I subsequently learned was vetted of any evidences of Miscavige's hand in the deal.

But this is what happened. So my whole mandate is to handle the internal aspect of it. Just to get to the truth.

And a day into that, ah, the Clearwater police show up, and say they want to speak to Alain and ah, Janis. Well I guess somebody identified Alain and J- Janis. Ah, I don't know, I don't know how that worked or they just voluntarily were the ones that said they were responsible. They had to go to the Clearwater Bank Building and see the police.

Had, not on my lines at all. Because I'm only handling this, you know, orders that were issued, as per David Miscavige's orders.

Well, what happens is Janis and Alain go in and tell the police a complete and utter lie. They s- said there was no religious services whatsoever. This was all a situation of a woman coming for rec-, ah, rest and relaxation at the Fort Harrison.

13:45

So now that's on record with the police. Okay?

Later [Voice and gesture like DM] that day or that evening, I get a call that I go- gotta go out to Clearwater Beach to get a, ah, ah, get on a payphone to get a confidential call from David Miscavige.

I get the call. And he says to me, "Why aren't you all over this thing? "

"Why are--why is Tom De Vocht handling the police and why is Tom De Vocht arranging interviews? Where are you in all this?" "Why --" You know, and I'm not going to--

14:13

By the nature of the whole relationship, you don't say, "Well, sir, you know three months ago, you told me to shut my mouth and [chuckles] when somebody says jump, you know I say, 'How high?'" You don't do that. You listen and you take it, and you know, whatever. But, he's now saying, "Get on it!"

So that's the, that's the hand I'm dealt. I got two false sworn statements to law enforcement agents. I've got ah, the worst possible perfect storm of incompetence and irresponsiblity, in terms of what actually went down. Okay?

Um, and that's how it begins. [End of Part 3.]

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Post by caroline » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:20 am

The Clearwater Police Report #95-29158 indicates that on December 6, 1995, Sgt. Teunis, Det. Ronald Sudler and Det. Tom Miller met with Brian Anderson, Vice President of OSA at 210 S. Fort Harrison and asked to interview Laura Arrunada, Paul Greenwood and Alain Kartuzinski about Lisa's death. Anderson located the three people and arranged for the police to interview them at the Clearwater Building at 500 Cleveland. Janis Johnson was not interviewed on that day.

I haven't seen any police report on this case that mentions Tom De Vocht.

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Post by juju » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:27 pm

Caroline I'm not entirely sure what your trying to achieve on the Marty Rathbun scene.

If Gerry's posessions were stolen in 1984, do you think that Marty is going to be able to get them back for you now or that they are still in existence?

Marty has confessed to the media that Lisa's case was botched and that David Miscavige had a part in it's programming. He sounds like someone who is only confessing up to what is already known. He more than likely genuinely believes that some individuals are suppressive. He doesn't want to get involved in whatever it is it looks like your trying to lure him into.

Lisa's family, like many others settled. The horror DM has to live with on a day to day basis is a punishment I would not wish on anyone, even if it is not the punishment that he should have got.

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Post by caroline » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:03 pm

Rathbun wrote:I guess nine days later, something like that, she, Angie now comes to me, and says, Hey, you know, when you're doing a type 3 handling, what kind of sedative do you use if ah, if a sedative's required?" Like, "Is Valium, or, do you use something like that?"

I said, "Well, no, we usually -- I mean, I've seen type 3 handlings or participated in them for 20 years. And everybody always used chloral hydrate because it's the most mild, ah least narcotic sedative and it's very, very effective in getting somebody to sleep and that's the whole purpose of it. And I had, you know, that was the only, back and forth I had during that, that matter over there.
Here's a medical definition for chloral hydrate:
http://www.lexic.us/definition-of/chloral_hydrate wrote:Definition of Chloral hydrate

1. Noun. A colorless crystalline drug used as a sedative; irritates the stomach and can be addictive.
Specialized synonyms: Knockout Drops
Generic synonyms: Depressant, Downer, Sedative, Sedative Drug

Medical Definition of Chloral hydrate

1. A hypnotic and sedative used in the treatment of insomnia. The safety margin is too narrow for chloral hydrate to be used as a general anaesthetic in humans, but it is commonly used for that purpose in animal experiments. It is no longer considered useful as an anti-anxiety medication. Pharmacological action: sedatives, nonbarbiturate, anaesthetics, intravenous. Chemical name: 1,1-Ethanediol, 2,2,2-trichloro- (12 Dec 1998)
Notice Scientology's targeted ad on the chloral hydrate page:
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Post by juju » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:09 pm

OK Caroline - that is a very valid point. In fact Rathbun may drop himself in it one at a time. I thought for a moment that you were using various tactics to call Rathbun out on your own and Gerry's past dealings with the Church.

He confesses to using this like it is normal.

thank you!

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Post by Wieber » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:25 pm

juju wrote:The horror DM has to live with on a day to day basis is a punishment I would not wish on anyone, even if it is not the punishment that he should have got.
You might live under that kind of horror on a daily basis under those circumstances but if I'm right about David Miscavige he is a psychopath and if he is a psychopath he does not live with any horror, remorse or guilt ever.

I refer you to Without Conscience by Robert Hare or check out his web site. http://www.hare.org/
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

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Post by caroline » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:41 pm

Juju, my last post was not meant as a response to yours. I didn't see your post until later, but I'll respond now.
juju wrote:Caroline I'm not entirely sure what your trying to achieve on the Marty Rathbun scene.
How about justice, truth, the end of this nasty and violent cult's war on us, etc.?
juju wrote:If Gerry's posessions were stolen in 1984, do you think that Marty is going to be able to get them back for you now
He can help. If he won't help, fine; that will say a lot about the man.
juju wrote:or that they are still in existence?


He can state what he knows, as Gerry asked, about what happened with the stolen items. He very well could also know the details of the burglary. Or Mark can rabbit, or he can lie, or he can pretend ignorance, or do any other piece of Scientology non-confront or nastiness tech.
juju wrote:Marty has confessed to the media that Lisa's case was botched and that David Miscavige had a part in it's programming. He sounds like someone who is only confessing up to what is already known.


Could be. That’s easy for him to change.
juju wrote:He more than likely genuinely believes that some individuals are suppressive.


All Scientologists do this, and Mark clearly adheres to the "Suppressive Person" doctrine. I would hope that he comes to his senses and cognites that the doctrine is wrong and evil. He still benefits monetarily and egocentrically from espousing the doctrine.
juju wrote:He doesn't want to get involved in whatever it is it looks like your trying to lure him into.
I don't think you can know that unless you're him. Neither Gerry nor I, however, are trying to lure Mark into anything. That would involve fooling him about what's being requested of him. Mark is trying to lure people into, or back into Scientology, by lying to them about its workability, its source’s honesty and integrity, etc. But Gerry has been completely open and clear about what he wants from Mark.

It very well could be that Mark wants to tell the truth about what he's done over many years to Fair Game Gerry and other Scientology victims, but Mark could be afraid. That he doesn't come forward and tell the truth in this circumstance despite his fear, however, indicates that Mark is still being cowardly.

Scientology teaches in its scripture, and in fact Mark quotes this in his 1991 declaration about which Gerry wrote him:
Rathbun wrote:
Hubbard wrote:To the weak, to the cowardly, to the reprehensibly irrational, dishonesty and underhanded dealings, the harming of others and the blighting of their hopes seem to be the only way of conducting life. Unethical conduct is actually the conduct of destruction and fear; lies are told because one is afraid of the consequences should one tell the truth; thus, the liar is inevitably a coward, the coward is inevitably a liar.

L. Ron Hubbard, Science of Survival, at 142-143 (1989 Ed.).
Mark, being cowardly, can be expected to dramatize what Hubbard says he will dramatize -- dishonesty and underhanded dealings, the harming of others and the blighting of their hopes, etc. Therefore it is proper to warn people about Mark, and to encourage him to stop being cowardly and so stop his cruel and dangerous dramatizations.

Mark stated in what I believe was his first public post after leaving the Sea Org:
I am only offering to share all the skills I have learned -- from a wide variety of sources -- to help those in need who once formally participated in Scientology but who now hold no hope nor intention of ever seeking help from the Church.
And Gerry wrote in his first public letter to Mark:
You offered to help those in need who once formally participated in Scientology but who now hold no hope nor intention of ever seeking help from that organization. That’s me to a T.

[...]

As I said at the start of this letter, I’m a person in the class of persons you offered to help: a person in need of the help that you can give, and someone who once formally participated in Scientology but who now holds no hope nor intention of ever seeking help from that religion or organization. I know you learned the skill of telling the truth, and that’s the skill I’m asking you to now share. I’m asking you to make good with me, and on a one-on-one basis is fine with me.
Mark very possibly was lying in his offer to help people like Gerry, but, if Mark was at all honest in his offer to help, he has the skill to write a declaration detailing the truth he knows.

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Post by caroline » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:21 pm

Chloral hydrate is a knock out drug sometimes used in Mickey Finns. [Wikipedia:Chloral hydrate] The Clearwater Police mentioned this use of, and the slang term associated with, chloral hydrate when they interviewed Dr. Minkoff:
Statement of Dr. David Minkoff wrote:46
[...]
3 Q. Did this chloral hydrate stuff -- is that what
4 used to be called a Mickey Finn? Remember that
5 expression, slip somebody a Mickey Fin? Remember that?
6 A. I remember it, but I don't know if it's that.
7 Q. I --
8 A. It's not a very good --
9 Q. That's what a Mickey Finn used to be, is a
10 chloral hydrate. Do you remember that?
11 A. Is it?
12 Q. I think so. Just thought I'd throw that out.
13 AGENT STROPE: Mixed with alcohol.
14 A. It's like a real old drug, probably, from the
15 `40's.
16 BY MR. McGARRY:
17 Q. Right. People would drop it in your shot glass
18 or your drink glass.
19 A. And you'd go to sleep.
20 Q. Yeah. Well --
21 A. I don't know.


Minkoff, David. "Statement of David Minkoff 04-20-1997." 1997.
Source: http://www.lisafiles.com/police/statements/1955.html
The following Science of Survival excerpt relating to chloral hydrate is a good example of how Hubbard taught "diametrically opposed" applications, i.e., both "black" and "white" Dianetics.

Rathbun is way off source when he verbal teched that chloral hydrate was "the most mild, ah least narcotic sedative." Hubbard said in scripture that chloral hydrate is a "heavy sedative."
From Science of Survival by L. Ron Hubbard who wrote:Drug hypnotism does not have to be done with the individual’s consent. An individual who is drugged can receive and will obey hypnotic commands given to him by the doctor or operator and will continue to obey these commands after waking from the drugged sleep. By using the method of dropping a heavy sedative such as chloral hydrate into an individual’s drink, by suddenly muzzling him with a silk scarf from behind and injecting morphine into his arm, or by discovering the individual when he is drunk or shortly after he has been operated upon or during an operation, or during the administration of electric shock or sedation in an insane asylum, drug hypnosis can be induced. Thereafter, the operator works much as in ordinary hypnotism. Drug hypnosis can be administered with such wording that the patient will not only forget what he has been told and yet perform it, but will also forget that he has ever been given drug hypnosis, if that command is included, and he may even be given data to account for the time during which he was given the hypnosis. Drug hypnotism, then, can be done without the consent of the subject and is commonly so done even by doctors in the normal course of practice. There is nothing new or strange about drug hypnosis. It occasionally fails to work as the operator intends, and it does not usually strike against the individual’s normal moral tone save that, of course, it inevitably lowers him on the tone scale, thus bringing about a tendency to generally lowered morals. But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure.

It has been discovered that a drugged individual when beaten and given orders would almost invariably obey those orders regardless of the degree to which they flouted his moral tone or his position or his best interests in life.

Before Dianetics, the widespread use of this practice was unsuspected, simply because there was no means by which one could even detect the existence of pain-drug-hypnosis. An individual might be given pain-drug-hypnosis on Tuesday night and wake up Wednesday morning without knowledge of the fact that he had been slugged when he stepped out of his car, given an injection, painfully beaten but not so as to leave any marks, and put quietly into his own bed. This individual does not know that anything unusual has happened to him nor will he suspect it even when he is confronted with the fact that his conduct is extremely changed along certain lines. This individual, if the criminal operator desired it, would actually obey the commands to the point of striking up a friendship with some person the operator indicated, thereafter conducting his business along lines suggested by this “friend.” The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality and so unfailing in its action, save in cases of individuals with theta endowment far beyond that of the normal man, that a wider investigation was undertaken, to discover just how many people one could find within easy reach who had been given pain-drug-hypnosis. Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation has ceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals. Psychotherapists with whom the Foundation has dealt have been eager to plant an engram in a patient and have the Foundation recover it, to see how many of the perceptics are recoverable. The Foundation will accept no further experiments in this line and informs experimenters that they do this at their own grave risk. A much more natural and valid validation of engrams can be done without the use of drugs.

Hubbard, L. R. (1951). Science of survival: Prediction of human behavior. Los Angeles, Calif: Bridge Publications.


Rathbun emphasized that Lisa's handling was "diametrically opposed" to standard, or I guess "white" Dianetics:

Rathbun: [...] I mean I can't describe to you how 180 degrees diametrically opposed the handling of her was to what the scripture says is the way you're supposed to handle something like that.

Reporter: In fact you had a phrase for how it was handled. Um, a perfect storm, or--

Rathbun: I thought it was a perfect storm of, of incompetence and irresponsibility.

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Post by juju » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:01 pm

Caroline thank you for clarifying all of that.

I don't believe that the majority of Scientologists know that this substance is used.

Marty probably didn't even realise that he said it.

How many more times will Marty start letting slip about what goes on 'uplines'. Is he working on his own self preservation?

As such a major enemy of the Church I do not know if Marty would know how to break the ice with somoene like Gerry. If Gerry could get his posessions back, if they are still in existence, it would be the least Marty could do.

Keep up the writing on the black magic front and the tarot. I've really enjoyed reading those posts.

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Post by magoo1 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:21 am

He can state what he knows, as Gerry asked, about what happened with the stolen items. He very well could also know the details of the burglary. Or Mark can rabbit, or he can lie, or he can pretend ignorance, or do any other piece of Scientology non-confront or nastiness tech.
Well said, Caroline, and I hope for both Gerry and Marty's sake, he does
begin to tell the details he knows, and is vital for many to hear.

Thanks for the facts re CH also. In Catherine's Story, I believe they used that on her, too. YUCK!

Love to all,

Tory/Magoo

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Post by caroline » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:00 am

magoo1 wrote:Thanks for the facts re CH also. In Catherine's Story, I believe they used that on her, too. YUCK!

Love to all,

Tory/Magoo
Hi Tory, and you're welcome of course. :D I'm not familiar with Catherine's Story. Is it available online?

C

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caroline
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Part 2 From renovation to IRS...

Post by caroline » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:31 pm

Unofficial transcript of Rathbun interview wrote:Video source: http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... hbun.shtml

Part 2 From renovation to IRS...

Reporter: Can you ah, give us a rundown of your ah, your, your rise through Scientology, ah what different posts you held and ah, from there.

Rathbun: All right, well, in ah, January of 1978 I began in the Sea Organization, which is the, you know, the million year, billion year contract, you know, lifetime commitment and more. And I went to Los Angeles. Um, I did, ah, I was on a project to do purchasing for the renovations of the Cedars of Lebanon Hospital complex which is a whole full block of Scientology service ah, organizations. I did that for about, I guess nine months or something like that.

And then shortly after that I went on to ah, the winter headquarters which was ah, the name of the base out at La Quinta, out in the desert, where Hubbard was, where there was a group of maybe a hundred, hundred, hundred and fifty people that were um, putting together a, what they called a um, cinematography organization to film dissemination films and instructional films.

1:05

Reporter: And this is, I'm sorry, this is L. Ron Hubbard the founder of Scientology?

Rathbun: Correct.

Reporter: Okay. Okay. And ah, so you ah, did you meet Mr. Hubbard?

Rathbun: No, I never did meet him.

Reporter: Okay.

Rathbun: He was just leaving there when I got there. In fact one of my first, he was ah, he was originally going to leave temporarily, um, and one of my first jobs was to help renovate, um, his home there, cuz it was anticipated that he would return. But he never did return.

Reporter: Okay. And what did you do after that?

Rathbun: And then I, after that I became ah, I went into what was called L. Ron Hubbard External Communications and we handled all the ah, communication relays between L. Ron Hubbard and the rest of the church.

Reporter: Okay. And ah, what time period are we talking about now?

Rathbun: This is like 1979...

Reporter: Okay.

Rathbun: ...yeah '79 and '80...

Reporter: Okay.

Rathbun: I did that for about two years.

Reporter: All right. And then after that?

2:04

Rathbun: And then after that, in 1981, I went on to the s-, what was called the Special Project, which was a small group headed by David Miscavige. He was actually called "The Operator" so he, you know everybody from the unit answered to him and there was four other people in it. And our job was to find out ah, really investigate and get to the bottom of ah, why there was so many lawsuits naming L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, and um, come up with a solution as to how to get rid of those lawsuits cuz he was getting on in years and um, he-, the idea was he wanted to come back to um, what is now called the International Headquarters or the Int base in, just outside of San Jacinto, California, um, where films-- dissemination and um, educational are made.

And he wanted to get those, those films done, and get them done, so our job was to try to, the-, get rid of all these lawsuits that were outstanding against him so that he could come back there, ah, harassment-free and live out his days working on what he wanted to work on.

Reporter: Okay. Okay, and how long were you in this position?

Rathbun: Well, I guess I was on it for the rest of my career in, in a way, I mean it was different permutations of it. It was first called the Special Project, and then it was called the Special Unit, and then it was called, then we, we established the Office of Special Affairs to, to, um, replace the Guardian's Office. And then I was at Author Services which was L. Ron Hubbard's ah, personal literary agency, it handled all his personal business. And I was the legal executive there.

But again I was, I was still working on clearing away anything that might embroil L. Ron Hubbard in legal matters or external-facing matters. All the way up, that's all the way up through '86 now, so this is a, you know, five year, five year period through there.

3:56

Reporter: Okay. And when you first started this post, this is when you first encountered David Miscavige?

Rathbun: 1981. June of 198--, well I actually knew him earlier, casually, but not--. First time I ever worked with him.

Reporter: I see. Okay. All right, ah, and so thereafter you-- Tell us about, there's some highlights of your career, ah, that we've talked about, ah, ah, where you did some major things for Scientology. Can you talk about that? Ah, I guess early 1990's, ah, when there were problems with the IRS?

Rathbun: Well, yes. The IRS, was um, really an extension of this "All Clear" concept of getting rid of all the legal matters or external-facing matters that are hindering Scientology. It was tied in with the lit-, with ah, about a couple of dozen lawsuits were brought around the country naming L. Ron Hubbard. Um, some ground-, grand juries that were outstanding from the old Guardian's office activity that were-, there was one in Tampa, one in D.C., and I believe one in New York that were still trying to get indictments against ah, Mr. Hubbard. You know, even after the Guardian's Office people had been indicted and convicted in Washington.

So all these things sort of tied together with one another. And um, it was always perceived that the IRS was the most important thing to handle because if you have tax exemption you have ah, religious, religious recognition, you're treated differently in courts, you know, there's, there's a, you know, some, some level of almost immunity, First Amendment immunity, to a lot of the type of allegations that were being made.

5:36

So, the IRS was the big thing to handle. I mean, when, when I was involved in that in the late '80s, we had calculated that they, the IRS, considered that the churches had upward of a billion dollars in liability.

And the total reserves of the church were a f-, were a fraction of that. Maybe in the 200 million range. So, literally, they could have wiped Scientology out five times through.

So um, between having got rid of a lot of the civil suits in the mid '80's and '93, when we ultimately got exemption, I mean the number one mission was to obtain ah, tax exemption from the IRS and..

Reporter: Hm-mm.

Rathbun: ..you know, that was the bulk of what my attention was on and what I worked on.

Reporter: And you were right at the center of that IRS effort, right? Ah, you, ah, worked with Mr. Miscavige. Can you tell us about that, with the IRS people?

Rathbun: Yeah, okay. Well, um, in the late '9-, late '80s, ah, and going into the early '90s, ah, you know I was tasked with the, with, with, um, implementing um, strategies to try to overwhelm the IRS like they were attempting to overwhelm us. [chuckles] And it was sort of like a "fight fire with fire" situation.

Um, we brought FY-, Freedom of Information Act lawsuits, um, in numerous different jurisdictions. We had legal, ah, litigation strategies to um, counteract their strategies to deny certain churches exemption and that sort of thing. But it, it was, it was a huge battlefield. It was nation-wide. It was literally twenty-seven hundred suits at one point.

And I was very much involved in coordinating and coming up with strategies and then executing a lot of that between the late '80s and the early '90s.

7:23

And then in ah, late '91, ah Dave Miscavige and myself were in Washington. And Miscavige kept bringing it up with the attorneys, you know, "Why don't we just sit down with the Commissioner and get this thing straightened out." Because there's so much, you know, there's so, there's so much insanity that goes on when you have this kind of institutional fight going on for so long. And you know you're fighting over issues that are anachronistic in a lot of cases. They're just, they're, they're not, they're not even--. You know we're, we're fighting over-- For example we were fighting over the years '70 through '72. That's as far as the litigation had reached, and here we are twenty years later in '90, '91.

So he kept pressing that you know, "Why don't we just go straight to the top and talk to the Commissioner."

And we had a lot of expensive attorneys from D.C. and Washington who were, you know, attempting at different levels to start negotiations. And that went in fits and starts and one day we were in Washington, and finally ah, Dave said to one of the attorneys there, he said, you know, "We're going to go right, go straight down there and go see Fred." And he, and of course the attorney was laughing. And he turned to me and he said, "Right?" And I said, "Yeah!" And then you know ..

Reporter: Was Fred..

Rathbun: ..they all thought it was a joke. And we ah, right afterwards, we just got up from lunch, got in a cab and went straight down there and opened the door. You know, opened the door to, to, to get negotiations going. We didn't get in a meeting, ah, as has been reported. We didn't just walk in to the Commissioner's office. We walked in and said, "We'd like to bury the hatchet." Couple of assistants, assistants of the Commissioner came down and saw us. Took all our information, said he would get, said they'd get back to us. And they did, I think it was even later that day, to set up a meeting with the Commissioner for the following week.

Reporter: This was Fred Goldberg?

9:10

Rathbun: Yeah, Fred Goldberg.

Reporter: Uh-hmm, okay. And that began a process, ah, after that?

Rathbun: That began a process. I mean, all Fred Goldberg did was open up the door to creating a f, a forum where we could make a case for exemption. Um, and what he did that was, that was ah, was so positive and unique was is he tried to bring somebody in who was fresh, who, who knew exempt organizations but didn't have a long history with Scientology.

Reporter: Mm-mm.

9:40

Rathbun: Ah, cuz there was some real haters, some real Scientology haters within, that you know, had an attitude of, no matter what you said, they were going to, you know, they were going to deny the exemption.

And um, so all he did was put, give us the ability to, to, to meet with a team that didn't really have a, a long track record on this, yet knew exempt organizations, knew what the requirements were. And said, "Okay, prove you're exempt."

10:08

And then that process went on for at least two years. I mean we were literally commuting to Washington D.C. almost every week. It was Monday, or Sunday out to D.C., see the IRS, present the answers to their, their set of questions, get another set of questions, go back to L.A., get the information together, get the, you know, some would entail audits of certain units, or this sort of thing, you know, you have to account for different things, [Scratching left ear] in, in operations, in finances, and that sort of thing. Boom! Next Sunday, back on a plane, back to D.C., another meeting with-- That went on for two years.

10:43

Reporter: And this process is, is it, is it you and Mr. Miscavige primarily?

Rathbun: Primarily. Um, at one point attorneys came in, started coming with us. We were really starting to get into more technical audit issues. Ah, Mike Rinder ah, attended several of the meetings. Heber Jentzsch attended several of the meetings. And then we would sometimes bring in experts on different fields. Like Rick Bosch that came in to one on FOIA.

Um, Bill Walsh was another FOIA attorney who came in and attended one or two meetings. But primarily, ah, the two constants through the, from the beginning to the end were ah, Dave and myself.

11:19

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caroline
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Post by caroline » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:21 pm

Rathbun: Yeah, okay. Well, um, in the late '9-, late '80s, ah, and going into the early '90s, ah, you know I was tasked with the, with, with, um, implementing um, strategies to try to overwhelm the IRS like they were attempting to overwhelm us. [chuckles] And it was sort of like a "fight fire with fire" situation.
This admission about strategies, and the implementation of those strategies, to overwhelm the IRS, an agency of the US Federal Government, for the purpose of obtaining the benefits and protections Rathbun also admits to, is, I think, very important. He did not appear to be "confessing" or apologizing.
Rathbun: So all these things sort of tied together with one another. And um, it was always perceived that the IRS was the most important thing to handle because if you have tax exemption you have ah, religious, religious recognition, you're treated differently in courts, you know, there's, there's a, you know, some, some level of almost immunity, First Amendment immunity, to a lot of the type of allegations that were being made.
The allegations then being made, of course, were of the very things Rathbun is now stating, in e.g., his 31 flavors, in fact were occurring.

A conspiracy, which is what he’s admitting to, to overwhelm the IRS has got to be a criminal offense. In this case, the US Federal Government rewarded Scientology’s conspiracy to overwhelm them with tax exemption. A key part of the overwhelm, which Rathbun also admits to, is the submission of an overwhelming mass of false statements in answer to the IRS’s questions.
Rathbun: And then that process went on for at least two years. I mean we were literally commuting to Washington D.C. almost every week. It was Monday, or Sunday out to D.C., see the IRS, present the answers to their, their set of questions, get another set of questions, go back to L.A., get the information together, get the, you know, some would entail audits of certain units, or this sort of thing, you know, you have to account for different things, [Scratching left ear] in, in operations, in finances, and that sort of thing. Boom! Next Sunday, back on a plane, back to D.C., another meeting with-- That went on for two years.
The overwhelm strategies he says he came up with and implemented conform with standard Hubbard scriptural policy such as the following:
In HCO PL 15 August 1960 Department of Government Affairs, L. Ron Hubbard wrote: The goal of the department is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by high-level ability to control and in its absence by low-level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control such agencies. Scientology is the only game on Earth where everybody wins. There is no overt in bringing good order.
Hubbard, L. R. (1991). The organization executive course. Vol. 7, Executive division. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications.
Rathbun's present time allegation that the IRS was trying to overwhelm Scientology, as a justification for the cult's conspiracy to overwhelm the IRS, is a present time lie.

The US Government’s succumbing to Scientology’s conspiracy to overwhelm it, when people in that Government knew the cult was criminal, is itself a crime, particularly against the cult's victims these same knowledgeable government people knew of, and even asked about in their sets of questions – like Gerry Armstrong. (Ref. Scientology lies to the IRS about Gerry Armstrong)

That the IRS Commissioner brought in a new, unknowledgeable "team" to commit, and hide and justify this crime, is unconscionable.

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caroline
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Re: The Admissions of Mark C. Rathbun

Post by caroline » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:09 pm

Compare Scientology's standard (according to Rathbun) isolation tech with the known results of sensory/stimuli deprivation for conversion or reconversion (colloq "brainwashing") as given in the CIA's KUBARK Interrogation Manual.
Unofficial Transcript of Rathbun Interview wrote:Video source: http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... hbun.shtml

Part 3 The Lisa McPherson case

Rathbun: Tom. This is what you need to understand. On a type 3 handling, or a psychotic break handling, it's generally, you know, you've heard this thing about the person is put into isolation, right? Okay. That whole thing lasts a day, maybe two max. Do you understand me?

Reporter: Uh, huh.

Rathbun: In other words, if it goes beyond a day or two, there's something really weird going on. I've never seen it happen before.

Well, subsequently I learned that they've got her in a, in a, room where which is facing, ah, Osceola Avenue, and there's city buses going by, there's all this noise going, on. Ah, there's a whole chain of wild events, um, that were going on that just don't bear any resemblence to how you're supposed to do a type 3 handling. But I didn't know all that at the moment. It was only when I investigated it subsequently did I find that out

[...]

Reporter: Okay, and, and, from, from, from, then on, ah, so you got pulled into the, the, McPherson case. Ah, and what were your duties throughout the rest of that, the case when it went to litigation and everything.

Rathbun: Okay. I'll tell you what happened. We ah-- the next morning, went to investigate what, what went on. It was a, it was like walking into a disaster area. There was ah, like 15 people -- 15 to 20 people who were, had been attendants.

And it was like walking into a, a flood scene or something. I mean they ah, they all looked devastated. [Ticking off their indicators on his fingers.] They were, they lacked sleep, some of them had scratches and bruises from getting hit by Lisa. Um, all of them were extremely emotionally distraught because each one of them put it on their shoulders that they had done something wrong.

Well, quite frankly everybody did something wrong because the whole thing was done wrong. I mean, you don't have 15 different people rotating in and out of a room with somebody who's psychotic. The whole idea of this is, is you -- of this isolation-- is, is you -- you don't have any external stimulii restimulating the person and getting him to set off again. If you have utter stillnessa and utter quiet, they tend to calm down enough that they can then communicate and you can do some auditing and then you can help bring them up and pull them out of the thing.

Tom, I've seen this work on a number of people over the years, all the way from my beginning days in Scientology.

It's really quite simple.

They have 15 people rotating in and out. She getting a different new stranger in the room every other day. They've got people in there cr- bawling their eyes out. You're not supposed to say a word! In fact you're not even supposed to be in the room. Okay? I mean I can't describe to you how 180 degrees diametrically opposed the handling of her was to what the scripture says is the way you're supposed to handle something like that.

Reporter: In fact you had a phrase for how it was handled. Um, a perfect storm, or--

Rathbun: I thought it was a perfect storm of, of incompetence and irresponsibility.

10:25

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Post by Dorothy » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:42 pm

From the manual:
3. Control: the capacity to generate, alter, or halt human behavior by implying, citing, or using physical or psychological means to ensure compliance with direction. The compliance may be voluntary or involuntary. Control of an interrogatee can rarely be established without control of his environment.
One of the earliest things you are indoctrinated on in scientology is the idea that there is "good control" and "bad control". It comes from the idea that the subject of "control" is given a bad rap by most people because mostly "bad control" has been used on them. The person then "cognites" and says "Oh yeah, that's right! Bad control has been used on me and that's why I don't like others controlling me!" Now the "control button" (help. control, communication being the basic buttons in scientology) has been "cleared". Now one is "open" to control, as it has been cleared and redefined for him or her, and they now naturally accept all of scientology's controls as being "good control". They then do many many hours of "objective processing" (at very high prices) that are nothing more than an auditor "flattening control". Hours upon hours of "touch this, touch that, look at this, look at that, pick up that book, pick up that bottle" and what happens if the person fails or refuses to carry out any of these commands? Why they are "handled" by the auditor, of course! And thus embarks the person into the world of accepting this one idea: that all non-compliance = getting handled by a scientology terminal.

Now the first of Lifton's "eight criteria for mind control groups", milieu control, becomes fully possible. In scientology it can be relatively speaking, light, as in the control of a public person's career choices or familial connections, or extremely heavy as in the case of Lisa McPherson, or of RPFers, people held in chain lockers, etc.

What's weird about Rathbun's statement is that I have never seen isolation in scientology, as in the case of a "type three", go for less than weeks, to months. I've seen several of these cases played out, and the "day or two" of isolation that Rathbun speaks of, I have never seen.
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt

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