One opened, more to come!
It is currently Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:08 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Dear Loyalist Think-Tankers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
Dear Amy,

In writing you, I am assuming that you are, as Scientology outed you, the “Peacock” in Freedom. I want to thank you then for talking to the Saint Petersburg Times about your experiences and for speaking out against the violence at Int.

Long term traumatization in that environment, which is so devoid of reason but so dominated by fear, is a phenomenon that is coming into society’s consciousness, so thanks also to you and the other ex-staff for adding to that knowledge. Your experience is painful, my heart goes out to you, and I wish you a full, fun and fast recovery. And I pray that the end is near for Miscavige’s tyranny.

I’m also assuming that to some extent at least you act in concert with the other contributors to http://www.scientology-cult.com who describe themselves as:

http://www.scientology-cult.com/who-we-are.html wrote:
a think tank of loyal Scientologists formed around the recognition that Scientology’s problems trace directly to the hidden corruption and criminality of David Miscavige, the self-appointed dictator who subverted Scientology.

Our purpose is to provide transparency to all sides and thereby bring Scientology out of its own Dark Age and into present time where it belongs.

Non-violent, non-corporate and non-commercial, our only pledge is to observe and state what we have observed, do what we can to help and support those abused by Miscavige and bring about a reformation of the subject to its real purpose -- giving people greater freedom in their lives.
http://www.scientology-cult.com/who-we-are.html


My conclusion is that Miscavige didn’t subvert Scientology, but rather prolonged Scientology as it was then being directed. The change from the Hubbard regime to the Miscavige regime was seamless, and virtually all of us who were Scientologists at the time helped make it and accept it as seamless.

Scientology’s “enemies,” the “Suppressive Persons” that the leaders made targets, remained the same from regime to regime, and their treatment and handling remained the same. Of course Miscavige, not eliminating or altering the SP doctrine but enforcing it according to his command intention, manufactured ever more SPs and enemies to treat and handle as enemies as policy directed.

Scientology’s SP enemies, if honestly confronted, are actually the organization’s or religion’s victims. The bigger an enemy someone was considered by Miscavige, and Hubbard, the greater the victimization. “Enemies” in Scientology, as you know, are people that the leader considers threaten his operations, that is who, in his evaluation, put Scientology at risk, or could keep it from working.

The leader’s operations, that is, Scientology, include, of course, victimizing these “enemies.” Victimization is the only treatment and handling Miscavige, Hubbard, and the SP doctrine permitted. Scientologists, no matter where they were in the organization, adhered to the doctrine and supported the treatment and handling the head directed or intended.

Scientologists accepted their own victimizing by Scientology and Scientologists in order to support Scientology’s and Scientologists’ victimizing of others, the people the leader says are putting them at risk. All of Miscavige’s personal, physical, violent victimization of his Sea Org underlings was accepted, and no one put a stop to it, in order to continue to support Scientology’s war on these enemies.

Accepting of their victimization includes Scientologists denial of being a victim at all. Hubbard, of course, to keep Scientologists from objecting to his victimizing them even defined “Scientologist” to be “one who is not a victim.” Miscavige simply continued Hubbard’s definition, and used it to heap more abuse on his Scientologist victims. You were victimized.

Technical Bulletins Volume 5 (c) 1991 L. Ron Hubbard Library wrote:
Image


I was victimized inside, but I am not constrained by Hubbard’s and Miscavige’s sociopathic definitions, attitudes, policies and practices relating to victims and victimization. I was a victim inside Scientology, and I’ve been a victim since Miscavige found out I’d left his control. I oppose Scientology and Scientologists because they victimize me, my husband, my daughter, friends and good people all over the world, pursuant to their Suppressive Person doctrine. I’m also opposed to Scientology and Scientologists because they victimize Scientologists. Every lie Hubbard ever told victimizes Scientologists. I will never be a Scientologist.

Based on the above, I have some questions that are important to me, for you, and the other people speaking up now, who apparently are still Scientologists and want to keep Scientology working but want to get rid of Miscavige:

1. Why should I support you?

2. Why should any of Scientology’s victims support you?

3. More importantly, why should we not oppose you?

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Last edited by caroline on Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 5146
Caroline, I am not a Scientologist, and never have been, and I abhor the abuses, including what was done to you and Gerry and your family. You and Gerry have done so much to help expose the evil of Scientology.

After watching Amy's videos, I believe she is a genuinely good and caring person. I was really touched, especially, by her sadness about how the disconnection policy has broken up families. I want to thank Amy for having the courage to do this. It seems to me she spoke from the heart.

_________________
"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
I'mglib wrote:
Caroline, I am not a Scientologist, and never have been, and I abhor the abuses, including what was done to you and Gerry and your family. You and Gerry have done so much to help expose the evil of Scientology.

After watching Amy's videos, I believe she is a genuinely good and caring person. I was really touched, especially, by her sadness about how the disconnection policy has broken up families. I want to thank Amy for having the courage to do this. It seems to me she spoke from the heart.


Thanks, I'mglib, I appreciate it. And thanks too for adding your kind thoughts about Amy. Here's what she said about disconnection.

Unofficial transcript of 8 Disconnection in the church wrote:
Video source: http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... obee.shtml

Reporter: Can you tell us about your feelings regarding the ah, disconnection policy, as, as applied and enforced by David Miscavige? Do you think it's, it's applied correctly, as--

Amy Scobee: No. It's not applied correctly remotely.

Okay. Disconnection in the church. And they say that it doesn't exist, which is just the biggest, fattest lie imaginable. And the fact that they separate families and put a wedge between a family member and their loved ones has got to be one of the biggest crimes the church can commit, and has committed.

And it's one of the reasons why they have people attacking them. Because that doesn't go away. Your love for your family does not go away.

Okay, the reason why that existed in the first place is because of a policy letter written by L. Ron Hubbard with regards to a suppressive person.

And the description of a suppressive person, um, if anyone wants to look it up on the Internet or whatever, the perfect example is the description of a so--, the profile of a sociopath. That gives a really good descrip-, description, and it also describes David Miscavige to a T.

That type of person will crush you, will take pleasure in seeing you fail, will make any gains that you have, less. Ah, will destroy your life and will put you in an insane asylum, will um, ah, do anything to suppress and make you less, um demoralize you, whatever.

That's the type of personality that L. Ron Hubbard was talking about when he said that you either handle or disconnect. If you cannot handle such a person in your life, then you should disconnect from them because they will work to destroy you.

Um, and, instead of--. And that's a very small percentage of, of people walking around on--. L. Ron Hubbard says it's two per cent of the entire population. So two per cent. Eighty per cent are supposed to be fine.

Okay, well instead of that logic, it's perverted and David Miscavige has put out on the street so many long-term, hard-working people because they either disagreed with what he said or whatever. I--, you, don't even try to figure out why.

But he has offloaded and declared scores and scores of people over the years. Not just recently even though it really escalated. But ah, over the years, starting with, that I know of like, the Mission Holder conference in, in 1982 where he just verbally declared a bunch of people who were gung-ho people who were trying to bring in new um, public onto the Bridge and disseminate.

And that started a real decline for the church. And ah, anyway, there's a long history. But anyway, just needless to say, that has separated so many people from their loved ones because it puts you in a, in a, status with the church where you can no longer, um, speak to anyone who is still affiliated with the church. So you've lost all your friends, any family members still in, and everything like that. And that is devastating.


Amy is talking about the injustice of declaring people who want to be Scientologists and get people up the Bridge. I don't fit in that category. I don't want to disseminate Scientology and I don't want people to go up the Bridge. I am opposed to Scientology and I do what I can to expose Hubbard and every part of his "technology." According to Hubbard's SP doctrine that Amy disseminated in the video, I am a legitimate target for obliteration, shattering, whatever. Disconnection goes without saying.

I was declared for not doing the Keeping Scientology Working. I believe Amy does KSW with everything she's got.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 293
Quote:
I believe Amy does KSW with everything she's got.


I happen to agree with you, Caroline, regarding hubbard's toxic "teachings." And I think that toxicity is evident -- hugely so, in his writings. Especially "keep scientology working" (ksw).

But -- on what do you base the quoted statement? Is she writing "knowledge reports" (krs) on everyone who is "out ethics"? Or -- well, on what do you base this allegation?

(And don't get me started on how hubbard bastardized the meaning of the word "ethics" LOL).

I'm so glad all those folks spoke with the SP Times (gotta love that nick!), but I do believe that hubbard built his empire of scientology with strict controls in place; bizarre and paranoid, he was. And it permeates all of his writings ("doctrine").

However, I did not get the same feeling you apparently did from Amy's vids.

It would be interesting to hear what she has to say regarding "ksw" -- I still cannot, for the life of me, understand or grok anything good from that "policy." For that matter, much of what hubbard wrote is so bereft of spirituality. At least, for this reader.

Another Surfer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 5146
Caroline, first let me say that I think anyone who has left the church and is speaking out now, should be commended, but should also consider making amends to those who were harmed. I am a big believer in repentance and making amends. I believe you and Gerry are on the list of people who were harmed. I also believe Graham Berry is somewhere near the very top of the list, and I would love to see him addressed someday by the people who sought to destroy him. Who knows who is most deserving of an apology, the list is so long.

However, I understand it takes time (years) to figure out and to understand what happened. It must be a very painful process, and unfortunately by the time you get through you're probably more than ready to move on.

Now, as far as Amy specifically goes, I just got the feeling that she wasn't directly responsible for harming people. I base this on nothing concrete, just the sincerity in her voice. There was genuine concern for people who were harmed by disconnection, and I didn't get the feeling she was talking about just herself. That's just my take from watching the videos.

Compared to what Marty Rathbun said in his videos, she came across as compassionate (unusual for Scientology, I know) whereas Marty did not seem to shed a tear for anyone. His only beef seemed to be that the tech was not applied "correctly". I could be wrong, but it didn't seem like he was conerned for anyone who was harmed by the church.

Amy said this about SPs:

Quote:
That type of person will crush you, will take pleasure in seeing you fail, will make any gains that you have, less. Ah, will destroy your life and will put you in an insane asylum, will um, ah, do anything to suppress and make you less, um demoralize you, whatever.


I would argue that that description doesn't apply to anyone here. I have a friend who decided to "disconnect" from her alcoholic mother (neither is a Scientologist) because her presence was wrecking my friend's life. I can totally understand this, and I am hoping that is the kind of situation that Amy meant.

It's frankly amazing to me that Amy felt this much compassion, given her long involvement with the church, starting at a young age. I really respect that she seems to have held onto that, against all odds. I have been thinking lately about how virtually 100% of the time, when you talk about abuse within the church with a Scientologist, their response will be, "It didn't happen to me" (or some variation that means the same thing). It must be the first thing they are taught upon entering the door. I applaud anyone who can spend anytime time in the church, and not have this reaction to stories of abuse.

_________________
"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
Another Surfer wrote:
Quote:
I believe Amy does KSW with everything she's got.


I happen to agree with you, Caroline, regarding hubbard's toxic "teachings." And I think that toxicity is evident -- hugely so, in his writings. Especially "keep scientology working" (ksw).

But -- on what do you base the quoted statement? Is she writing "knowledge reports" (krs) on everyone who is "out ethics"? Or -- well, on what do you base this allegation?

(And don't get me started on how hubbard bastardized the meaning of the word "ethics" LOL).

I'm so glad all those folks spoke with the SP Times (gotta love that nick!), but I do believe that hubbard built his empire of scientology with strict controls in place; bizarre and paranoid, he was. And it permeates all of his writings ("doctrine").

However, I did not get the same feeling you apparently did from Amy's vids.

It would be interesting to hear what she has to say regarding "ksw" -- I still cannot, for the life of me, understand or grok anything good from that "policy." For that matter, much of what hubbard wrote is so bereft of spirituality. At least, for this reader.

Another Surfer


Hi Another Surfer,

The members of the think tank at www.scientology-cult.com/who-we-are.html say they are loyal Scientologists who want to unsubvert Scientology and "bring it out of its own dark ages." Loyal Scientologists apply KSW points 1-10: Having the correct technology, knowing the technology, knowing it is correct, etc. The technology includes Ethics technology, an integral part of which is the intelligence reporting, as you noted. After she got out, Amy said she did write a KR in July 2006. [Chapter 10 @ 2:05]

Amy wrote:
I am not critical per se of Scientology. I am critical of ah, a person who is using his power to abuse people. [Chapter 10 @ 2:40]
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... obee.shtml

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
I'mglib, we're coming to some very meaningful and serious issues. Thanks for continuing to express your compassionate concerns.

Let me be clear that my purpose in writing to Amy is not to elicit an apology from her, or to obtain some personal benefit beyond what might come of a transparent discussion about the questions I laid out in my OP.

I believe that interacting with Amy in this public way conforms with the purpose expressed on the Loyalists' blog.

http://www.scientology-cult.com/who-we-are.html wrote:
We are a think tank of loyal Scientologists formed around the recognition that Scientology’s problems trace directly to the hidden corruption and criminality of David Miscavige, the self-appointed dictator who subverted Scientology.

Our purpose is to provide transparency to all sides and thereby bring Scientology out of its own Dark Age and into present time where it belongs.

Non-violent, non-corporate and non-commercial, our only pledge is to observe and state what we have observed, do what we can to help and support those abused by Miscavige and bring about a reformation of the subject to its real purpose -- giving people greater freedom in their lives.


It's because she's clearly intelligent and conveys compassion, and of course because she's an appreciated OCMB participant, that I've written her. Scientologists' war on wogs like Gerry and me is no fun, even though we've tried to keep our senses of humor through it all.

To me it would be yet another tragedy if Amy continued to support Scientology, which includes the SP doctrine. Amy's beef is not that DM used PTS/SP tech, but that he misapplied it when he wrongly declared people who still want to do KSW.

Obviously, the Loyalists in the think tank want to recover these gung-ho Scientologists who want to disseminate Scientology and get people up the Bridge. Rathbun specializes in Hubbard's ethics tech, which requires execution of the SP doctrine.

I've reached out to see if a step toward ending this war could be achieved.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
Dear Amy,
I want to respond to your statements relating to the Suppressive Person doctrine, which I believe is key to resolving Scientologists' conflict with human beings like me.

I was indoctrinated in the doctrine, of course, through 24 years in Scientology. I did the PTS/SP course, and the Ethics Specialist course, Basic Staff Hat (OEC Vol. 0), Staff Statuses and the basic Sea Org courses. After leaving Scientology, I've continued to study the SP doctrine and, with my husband and long-time SP and fair game target Gerry Armstrong, built a web site dedicated to exposing and opposing the doctrine and founded the Suppressive Person Defense League.

You said in your St. Petersburg Times interview:

Unofficial transcript of 8 Disconnection in the church wrote:
Video source: http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/r ... obee.shtml

Amy Scobee: And the description of a suppressive person, um, if anyone wants to look it up on the Internet or whatever, the perfect example is the description of a so--, the profile of a sociopath. That gives a really good descrip-, description, and it also describes David Miscavige to a T.

That type of person will crush you, will take pleasure in seeing you fail, will make any gains that you have, less. Ah, will destroy your life and will put you in an insane asylum, will um, ah, do anything to suppress and make you less, um demoralize you, whatever.

That's the type of personality that L. Ron Hubbard was talking about when he said that you either handle or disconnect. If you cannot handle such a person in your life, then you should disconnect from them because they will work to destroy you.

Um, and, instead of--. And that's a very small percentage of, of people walking around on--. L. Ron Hubbard says it's two per cent of the entire population. So two per cent. Eighty per cent are supposed to be fine.


There are some important points of agreement between your statement and this comment on the SP doctrine on SPDL:

Suppressive Person Defense League wrote:
Scientology’s SP doctrine states that SPs are the truly destructive, truly psychotic and truly criminal of the world’s wogs, the cause of illness, at the root of every bad condition, and deserving no civil rights. According to the doctrine, the majority of people in mental institutions are not insane at all, but were put there by SPs, who are the truly insane. Wog psychiatrists and psychologists are seen as a subclass of SPs, and psychiatry and psychology are considered “Suppressive Groups,” which Scientology seeks to “obliterate.” The SP doctrine identifies archetypal SPs like Hitler, Stalin and Osama bin Laden, but also says that SPs are very average, common too, just like me, and undetected.

The “stellar examples” Scientology uses to personify Suppressive Persons are very likely what wog mental science now calls antisocial personalities or sociopaths. Hubbard in fact also used the term “antisocial personality” for Scientology’s enemies, but inside the organization the settled and universal label is “SP,” or formally “Suppressive Person.” Many of the characteristics Hubbard imputes to SPs resemble the traits that psychology and psychiatry say sociopaths possess. The majority of the people Scientology calls SPs, and treats or attacks as irredeemable criminals, however, do not exhibit these characteristics, are not sociopaths, and do not manifest antisocial personality disorders.

The people Scientology and Scientologists identify and target as Suppressive Persons are largely good, social, non-sociopathic people who have simply stood up to the organization and spoken out about its fraud, its persecution of good people, its SP doctrine, or its numerous other antisocial policies and practices. The more knowledge a person has of these things, the more he communicates that knowledge, and the more rationally and accurately he communicates it, the bigger SP he is in the view of Scientology’s leaders. The bigger an SP these leaders consider a person to be, the greater the persecution that is to be inflicted on him, and the more of the organization’s personnel and resources that are directed to that target or front in Scientology’s global war. The form and amplitude of the persecution are further modulated by Scientology’s and Scientologists’ opportunities and means, and the need to be seen as winning.

Scientology does nothing really to wage war on the world’s actual or arguably truly dangerous sociopaths. Organization leaders, in fact, recruit and form alliances with certain sociopaths, and enforce within Scientology a self-perpetuating group sociopathy. Hubbard was a sociopath, who used his God-given will and mental power to make himself even more sociopathic. He saw his own sociopathy, as perhaps every sociopath does, not as a disorder, but as an ideal condition and way of life that made everyone else, and their conditions and ways of life, inferior. He conned countless people into admiring him, slaving for him, committing crimes for him, and paying him huge sums of money to obtain the fabulous qualities and abilities he claimed he possessed and had the “tech” to impart to others. The individuals that Scientology uses its inordinate wealth and power to attack are simply ordinary people who might recognize that Hubbard’s mental states are not ideal or even superior, or observe that other claims are false, and who speak out critically about him or his organization’s system and actions despite the inevitable persecution.

Article


Scientologists applying the tech haven't detected, routed or handled DM since 1976, even though he's a clear sociopath. It should also be acknowledged that even Hubbard didn't detect, route or handle DM. Of course Hubbard did know and everyone knows that it takes a cult leader to run a cult. The idea that DM turned the Scientology organization into a cult is just lame.

A fundamental problem is that applying the PTS/SP tech standardly makes it impossible for Scientologists to correctly detect, route and handle real sociopaths. This occlusion is, of course, key to Keeping Scientology Working. So why should anyone trust this technology? Why do you trust it?

I'm additionally concerned about the statements you made about people who do fit your category of SP, people like me (the "two and a half percenters") who commit "suppressive acts" such as these:

From Introduction To Scientology Ethics by L. Ron Hubbard who wrote:
HIGH CRIMES (SUPPRESSIVE ACTS)
Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

These consist of publicly departing Scientology or committing suppressive acts.

[...]

Public disavowal of Scientology or Scientologists in good standing with Scientology organizations.

Public statements against Scientology or Scientologists but not to Committees of Evidence duly convened.[...]


These "SP acts" are actually ordinary expressions, actually encouraged by civil rights laws, that do not evidence sociopathy in any way, shape or form. Scientologists should stop supporting and disseminating the PTS/SP tech and should stop victimizing people who dare to criticize that "tech" or anything else about Scientology or Hubbard.

--
Also see:
OCMB thread: Scientology's Suppressive Person Doctrine
My SP declare.
Gerry's SP declare of 18 February 1982, revised 22 April 1982.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm
Posts: 9037
I will beat a dead horse if I have to. I hope this is in keeping with this thread. I had to stop reading and say something.

Amy Scobee said,
Quote:
And the description of a suppressive person, um, if anyone wants to look it up on the Internet or whatever, the perfect example is the description of a so--, the profile of a sociopath. That gives a really good descrip-, description, and it also describes David Miscavige to a T.


The information on sociopaths and psychopaths that comes out of the disciplines of psychiatry and psychology does not align in any way with scientology's so called "technology" on "suppressive persons."

References:
The Mask of Sanity by Hervey Cleckley, M.D.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
The Sociopath Next door by Martha Stout
Without Conscience by Robert D. Hare

Having made that point I nevertheless agree with Amy Scobee's conclusion that David Miscavige is a sociopath.

_________________
"Disconnection is both an act of war and an admission of defeat."
Jon Atack

Image
http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909


Last edited by Wieber on Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm
Posts: 9037
I'mglib wrote:
Now, as far as Amy specifically goes, I just got the feeling that she wasn't directly responsible for harming people. I base this on nothing concrete, just the sincerity in her voice. There was genuine concern for people who were harmed by disconnection, and I didn't get the feeling she was talking about just herself. That's just my take from watching the videos.


I'mglib, what you have just detailed is one of the most deceptive aspects of scientology. Most of the people who are in scientology who consider themselves to be "scientologists" are genuinely well meaning individuals who think that what they are doing is the best thing they could possibly be doing for the betterment of themselves and everyone else and for society as a whole. That's one of the reasons it is so difficult to see the lies and the evil behind what they say and do.

Almost all the people involved in scientology think they are doing good and that they are basically telling the truth and their sincerity shines through. That's also one of the reasons it's so damn difficult to get them to see what it is they're involved with and what it is they're doing.

Having been one of them I can see what's going on with them and specifically with Amy and I'm sure Caroline sees it even more lucidly than I do.

_________________
"Disconnection is both an act of war and an admission of defeat."
Jon Atack

Image
http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 5146
Wieber and Caroline, you guys may be right, I don't know, I've never met Amy. All I know is I have talked to many Scientologists and I have NEVER heard a single one voice any concern that disconnection harms families. It's always, "That never happened to me," or, "They deserved it." Admittedly I only talk to people at protests, and that group probably isn't representative. I am obviously being *handled*. But because of this, when someone who was that much of an insider voices the opinion that strongly, it sure sounds good to me. In all the videos, Amy seemed the most concerned about this terrible practice in general (not just given her own situation).

That said, of course it would be better to condemn the whole notion of "suppressive persons" altogether, as defined by LRH.

A good picket sign:

A MOTHER WHO WANTS TO SEE HER DAUGHTER IS NOT SUPPRESSIVE

_________________
"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 68
Hi everyone. The BEDTIME STORY series was written by my husband Mat (Mark) Pesch, not me. (Yep, the church got it wrong, again.)

That this series also appears on the scientology-cult.com website doesn't mean that their views of Scn tech are my own, nor that of my husband. In fact, they are not.

I've left Scn forever and have strong views on the subject, however my purpose in speaking out was to expose the abuse. I tried to remain focused on that.

DM and his followers (particularly those "Scn execs" denying the truth who have sold their souls and have no scrap of any personal integrity left) are guilty of covering up the violence and abuse and the truth will be exposed.

Amy


Last edited by Mr.Peacock on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:09 pm
Posts: 5159
Location: Bondi Beach
Hi Amy,

The bedtime stories by your hubby are the best.

I don't know how rape and child molestation laws work in the U.S, but in Australia, there's no statute of limitations with timeline.
We have people prosecuted for child sexual abuse decades after the fact.

Im sure you've got well beyond the sick piece of shit that raped you, and the sick pieces of shit that wanted to keep it under wraps.
But, if it were me or someone >I< knew, I'd advise them to go for the throat of my abuser and all those that kept it quiet.

Anywayz, you beat those dogs in scientology and got your life back.
KUDOS!!

_________________
"If anyone talks about a "road to Freedom" he is talking about a linear line. This, then, must have boundaries. If there are boundaries there is no freedom." - Dianetics 55


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 5146
HOly Sh%t###!

How disgusting and despicable. Just when I think they can't go any lower, then it looks like they can and do. What kind of sick human being is David Miscavige and his pack of goons who carry out his sick orders? The whole thing of sending a notebook of categorized confessions to the SP Times is bizarre enough, but then to use this against someone is just vile.

Glad you got out of that crazy world, Amy, Thank-you for speaking out, and I agree with Alert. Maybe it's not too late to throw someone's ass in jail.

_________________
"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:56 am
Posts: 188
Thank you for speaking out, Amy. After everything that's happened to you, I commend and admire you for taking a stand. From the original article, your interview in particular touched me, and I wish you the very best.

The words the Cult chose to write about you speak volumes about them and their nature instead. But you know that already, I'm sure.

PS. I've always loved the bedtime stories. 8)


Last edited by charlottesometimes on Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group