Some questions about LRH early lectures

xenuphobe · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm **Posts:** 100

I've been listening to and reading the early lectures from LRH (1950-1952, ability congress, PDC, etc) and have a couple questions.

First, are these tapes still considered meaningful data to today's scientologist, and are they required? In other words, are scientologists today listening to this stuff and getting audited on its teachings?

Second, who are these people who are able to sit for hours listening to this guy spout out meaningless gibberish? Were/are people so desperate that they'll listen to the most obtuse fiction imaginable and try to apply it to their lives?

For example:

Quote:

Preclears will also have the idea that they’re hanging around the backs of their necks. They’ve got old currents and old ridges will go into vibration. And they start thinking about the backs of their necks and, of course, any ridge that’s on the backs of their necks will go into vibration. And they get the idea that entities or.. or en-thetans - ah, that’s a wonderful word - en-thetans are creeping up on them and crawling up on them, and that they’re being mobbed by this and that and so on. They can be very convinced about this, by the way; and that they’re.. they’re about to be attacked, or the whole town is about to be blown up or any damn thing you could think of. And uh.. they’ll get very worried about this.

and

Quote:

What happened to spacemen? to get back on the subject. For I’m sorry to say, you are going to have to resolve some of these spacemen cases. You will probably be perfectly conversant with this sort of thing after a while. Wild as it sounds for me to be standing here and telling you nonchalantly that about 12 million years ago- be perfectly conversant with this sort of thing after a while. Wild as it sounds for me to be standing here and telling you nonchalantly that about 12 million years ago- .... There are probably 2 or 3 people here in this room (about 80 people present) who 10 or 12 million years ago were sailing around, and there is at least 1 person in this room who has blown up a planet and killed everybody on it. That’s a fact. You needn’t laugh so hard. (addressed to that person)

Your spaceman, because of the liability of such freedom of motion, was quite ordinarily drugged into his passage. So he would come off one space-wagon, the Boasarius 16 or something of the sort. He would walk off this space-can and turn himself in and go on a wild drunk and shoot up the town, and get into trouble with the police. The inhabitants would throw him out and so he would walk back out to the space port, take a look at the gangplank and walk up the gangway. The Medical Officer on the thing says: “Step this way,” and he steps into a cabinet or lies down in a bunk. Quite ordinarily the space ships’ bunks were equipped this way - he would lie down in the bunk and a gong or something would ring and he would go out like a light. He would get an implant saying: “There is a barrier between you and your officers,” or “There is a barrier between you and the men,” for they did it to the officers too. The recruits’ implant went on to say: “There is a barrier between you and your officers, you shall not attack officers, you must obey officers, you must obey petty officers, you are loyal and faithful to the good ship Belasatius 16.” Of course this gets tangled up after a while, because there was the Belasarius 14, the Arcton 18, the Graviton 14, and the XL 394, and there is this one, and there is that one, and there are ships, ships, and ships. Every time he reported aboard for a new cruise he got an implant, and it gets boresome after a while.

(I won't bother with the Fifth Invader Force, you all know it)

Honest question: WTF? Are people actually taking notes on this stuff and taking it for fact? Didn't anyone have the guts to stand up and say, "What a load of crap! What are you people thinking?"

My theory, if you don't mind. I think LRH probably had a very vivid imagination growing up, and thought he was in store for some great accomplishments. When reality struck and he found that he wasn't measuring up to established standards (college failure, naval blunders), he invented his own standards. Right after the war, there were a lot of new technologies (nuclear physics, medicine, aeronautics) coming out, so it was the perfect time to introduce yet another technology. It is apparent to me that LRH was obsessed with trying to explain life using artifacts from his imagination. All he'd have to do is continually reinforce his imagination and come up with technical paradigms like flows, ridges, dispersals, wavelength, mass, particles, etc. Do this long enough, and you can ramble on for hours...and nobody can disprove you because you are the one who "discovered" all this stuff through "research" that is way above the abilities of the average mortal.

These tapes and transcripts are perfect evidence for showcasing the ramblings of a psychotic con-man. Anyone who is thinking of joining this "religion" should really have a listen to see for themselves what LRH was really all about. If someone can make it through a complete lecture and yearn for more, then scientology is just what they're looking for!

ZenWarrior · **Posted:** Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:41 pm

xenuphobe wrote:

Honest question: WTF? Are people actually taking notes on this stuff and taking it for fact? Didn't anyone have the guts to stand up and say, "What a load of crap! What are you people thinking?"

I did
I was on staff as the NED C/S and was training as an Auditor on the Levels 0-4, whereupon, one day I just broke under the enormous amount of bullshit that I was reading and doing idiotic clay demos about.
I wrote a "Knowledge Report" on the "tech" stating that my "EP" from doing the Levels was that
IT WAS ALL BULLSHIT!

You would not believe how fast ethics made me leave the building.
I did not have to waste time with "conditions" and "handling" and "routing off"
They just threw me the fuck out, much to my
NEVER ENDING THANKS

Wieber · **Joined:** Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm **Posts:** 8393

There was a flaw in my personality.

When I read the description of what a "clear" is all about in dianetics: the modern science of mental health I wanted it to be true. The euphoria that came from doing the training routines (TRs) "confirmed" that it must be true.

I think that's part of the hold on people in scientology. That's probably what let's the confidence game that gets more and more money from a person so that the promised ten million dollar lottery win can be processed and issued.

The person who calls himself/herself a "scientologist" and the victim of a confidence game both stay in being a victim because they want what is promised to be true.

So there's L. Ron spouting all sorts of crap. The content of what he said didn't matter. His audience hung on every word because he promised them they would achieve perfect memory, perfect health, deep relaxation, freedom from all their problems and ills and a mind that would always give them the right answer to any problem. They got a taste that it might be achievable and they wanted it to be true.

What happens when they find out it isn't true? They get declared as a "suppressive person" with all that goes with it and more new people are brought into the operation to feed their wealth and labor into it.

xenuphobe · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm **Posts:** 100

Wieber wrote:

There was a flaw in my personality.
...
So there's L. Ron spouting all sorts of crap. The content of what he said didn't matter. His audience hung on every word because he promised them they would achieve perfect memory, perfect health, deep relaxation, freedom from all their problems and ills and a mind that would always give them the right answer to any problem. They got a taste that it might be achievable and they wanted it to be true.

So are you saying that the people in the audience heard about all these great benefits, sat there and thought to themselves that what they're hearing is actual evidence of someone who achieved all those goals, and felt that immersing themselves in hours upon hours of technobabble would somehow get them there, too?

I'm not casting any stones, but it sounds to me like people who are taken in by this are searching for something, and probably don't have the benefit of possessing a "common sense circuit breaker" necessary to avoid getting sucked into this trap. Maybe they're extremely trusting and open (and possibly naive).

Christian and Jewish faiths publicly study and scrutinize their scripture, and people are free to post and ponder the meanings at churches, online, and on the radio. It would be interesting to ask a scientology "minister" the meaning of the quotes I posted, or the countless other gems provided by LRH. My guess is that they would avoid the question at all costs.

I'mglib · **Joined:** Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:17 pm **Posts:** 4969

Good topic, Xenuphobe.

I just gotta wonder, did Hubbard EVER explain how he knew what things were going on in space millions of years ago. I know he almost got run over by a freight train on Venus...but is that how he did all of this "research". Was he time traveling around 12 million years ago, and 75 million years ago? How did he have time to do all that time travel? Or, I guess he was actually just remembering things from his past lives? Still if that's his research, then you gotta buy that he remembered all those events from past lives millions of years ago. That's gotta be a LOT of lives, if each one is just 80 or so years.

Anyway, I can understand what you're saying, Wieber, about WANTING it to be true. We all convince ourselves at some time or other that something is worth believing in because the promised rewards are so enticing.

Gumbythetruth · **Posted:** Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:00 pm

I'mglib wrote:

Good topic, Xenuphobe.

I just gotta wonder, did Hubbard EVER explain how he knew what things were going on in space millions of years ago. I know he almost got run over by a freight train on Venus...but is that how he did all of this "research". Was he time traveling around 12 million years ago, and 75 million years ago? How did he have time to do all that time travel? Or, I guess he was actually just remembering things from his past lives? Still if that's his research, then you gotta buy that he remembered all those events from past lives millions of years ago. That's gotta be a LOT of lives, if each one is just 80 or so years.

Anyway, I can understand what you're saying, Wieber, about WANTING it to be true. We all convince ourselves at some time or other that something is worth believing in because the promised rewards are so enticing.

Think i now understand how hubbard came to some of his conclusions about what was going on in outer space many millennia ago. See hubbard liked deli style food. One day he wanders into a local deli and orders a hot pastrami sandwich on rye bread. Unbeknownst to hubbard, the rye bread had gone a little south so to speak. Having developed a rather moldy appearance. Well hubbard, being the cheap skate he was, scraped off as much of the rye mold as possible, then ate the sandwich. The rest is hallucinogenic history! :geek:

xenuphobe · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm **Posts:** 100

I'mglib wrote:

Good topic, Xenuphobe.

I just gotta wonder, did Hubbard EVER explain how he knew what things were going on in space millions of years ago.

I'd love to hear from someone who got an (any!) explanation from a scientologist.

IMHO, his imagination is responsible for a bulk of his verbal diarrhea, with a few actual "scientific" items such as logic and electricity...but even those was twisted to his purpose. Think of how you'd approach LRH: if you could make it through a lecture and get a word in edgewise, he'd probably respond that his research was done through auditing people using techniques he developed. You can't really "argue" that in the traditional sense, since it is basically hearsay. He could also say that while self-auditing (read trance or drugged) he himself experienced these things so vividly that they are in his mind factual. Again, his imagination and self-importance probably drove him to believe he was actually correct. It is easy to put aside self-doubt if you first convince yourself it is true...nobody would detect a bit of deception on his part.

No wonder he despised psychs, he was a prime candidate for their research!

RedPill · **Joined:** Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:33 am **Posts:** 1362

Gumbythetruth wrote:

I'mglib wrote:

Good topic, Xenuphobe.

I just gotta wonder, did Hubbard EVER explain how he knew what things were going on in space millions of years ago. I know he almost got run over by a freight train on Venus...but is that how he did all of this "research". Was he time traveling around 12 million years ago, and 75 million years ago? How did he have time to do all that time travel? Or, I guess he was actually just remembering things from his past lives? Still if that's his research, then you gotta buy that he remembered all those events from past lives millions of years ago. That's gotta be a LOT of lives, if each one is just 80 or so years.

Anyway, I can understand what you're saying, Wieber, about WANTING it to be true. We all convince ourselves at some time or other that something is worth believing in because the promised rewards are so enticing.

Think i now understand how hubbard came to some of his conclusions about what was going on in outer space many millennia ago. See hubbard liked deli style food. One day he wanders into a local deli and orders a hot pastrami sandwich on rye bread. Unbeknownst to hubbard, the rye bread had gone a little south so to speak. Having developed a rather moldy appearance. Well hubbard, being the cheap skate he was, scraped off as much of the rye mold as possible, then ate the sandwich. The rest is hallucinogenic history! :geek:

Not too far off, Gumby. According to LRH jr, aka Ron DeWolf aka Nibs, LRH did his ramblings on drugs, but the drug of choice was cocaine, sometimes speed. He sounded absolutely brilliant on cocaine, until, of course, you really listened, then it sounded like BS.

Common sense didn't apply because if you were in Scientology, you were looking for something that was beyond common sense. You were looking for clear and oatee and believing these things to be possible and without bowing down to Big Kahuna in some sort of belief system. You had to believe that the Hubturd developed a tech to get from here to there. Once you had decided that all of this was true and possible, then all you needed to do was find a way of beating the time and money problem, which, if you think about it, is relatively straight forward as opposed to figuring out a way of becoming an oatee on your own. The bottom line ... its a con that requires a particular kind of sucker that might not fall for a lot of other cons.

Pete

Wieber · **Joined:** Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm **Posts:** 8393

xenuphobe wrote:

So are you saying that the people in the audience heard about all these great benefits, sat there and thought to themselves that what they're hearing is actual evidence of someone who achieved all those goals, and felt that immersing themselves in hours upon hours of technobabble would somehow get them there, too?

I'm not casting any stones, but it sounds to me like people who are taken in by this are searching for something, and probably don't have the benefit of possessing a "common sense circuit breaker" necessary to avoid getting sucked into this trap. Maybe they're extremely trusting and open (and possibly naive).

Step one. You buy into dianetics. By buying into dianetics you accept the information and definitions of the engram and the reactive mind as true. (I'll take it you know what those things are. If you need me to explain I will.)

Step two. You buy into the concept being a spiritual being and then you buy into the concept of past lives. Hubbard tells you that at some point while doing dianetics on people they started to "run" incidents from lives prior to the one they are now living. As proof of this he puts out a book called Have you Lived Before This Life. This is a series of descriptions of past life incidents presumably culled from the folders of actual "preclears" although looking back I'm not so sure. Hubbard may have just sat down and made it all up.

Step three: You buy into Hubbard being the one who did all the research and the one who is the authority on all this stuff. He always positioned himself that way.

You've had the euphoria, the love bombing, and some of the primary correction and control applied to you, if not the out and out punishment. At this point you're ready to buy into anything Hubbard tells you.

xenuphobe wrote:

Christian and Jewish faiths publicly study and scrutinize their scripture, and people are free to post and ponder the meanings at churches, online, and on the radio. It would be interesting to ask a scientology "minister" the meaning of the quotes I posted, or the countless other gems provided by LRH. My guess is that they would avoid the question at all costs.

All scientology "auditors" are, by scientology's definition, ordained "ministers" of the so called church. If you were to ask any "auditor" the meaning of the quotes that you posted they would tell you to look up the words you don't understand. Of course, if they had any reason to believe you are an "SP" they would avoid you like the plague and they would rather have the plague than be anywhere near you.

spacecootie · **Posted:** Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:51 am

xenuphobe wrote:

I've been listening to and reading the early lectures from LRH (1950-1952, ability congress, PDC, etc) and have a couple questions.

First, are these tapes still considered meaningful data to today's scientologist, and are they required? In other words, are scientologists today listening to this stuff and getting audited on its teachings?

Any word ever uttered by Hubbard in one of his lectures is part of Scilon scripture. If it isn't considered particularly relevant today, wait a year or two... and it will be released in a new, improved form that every Scilon has to purchase immediately in order to accelerate their progress up The Bridge to Total Freedom®.

Look at the recent release of The Basics, which are nothing but repackaged books that have been around for decades.

Quote:

Second, who are these people who are able to sit for hours listening to this guy spout out meaningless gibberish? Were/are people so desperate that they'll listen to the most obtuse fiction imaginable and try to apply it to their lives?

As Weiber noted, the peer pressure to accept Hubbard's ramblings as brilliance is strong. Most of them probably didn't have the courage to say "WTF?" and walk out of the room, for fear of appearing to be a mindless wog who couldn't grasp the importance of a Hubbard lecture.

xenuphobe · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm **Posts:** 100

Wieber wrote:

All scientology "auditors" are, by scientology's definition, ordained "ministers" of the so called church. If you were to ask any "auditor" the meaning of the quotes that you posted they would tell you to look up the words you don't understand. Of course, if they had any reason to believe you are an "SP" they would avoid you like the plague and they would rather have the plague than be anywhere near you.

A classic quote from a Hubbard book:

Quote:

The only reason a person gives up a study or becomes confused or unable to learn is because he or she has gone past a word or symbol that was not understood.

Therefore, in studying Scientology be very, very certain you never go past a word you do not fully understand.

If the material becomes confusing or you can’t seem to grasp it, there will be a word just earlier that you have not understood. Don’t go any further, but go back to before you got into trouble, find the misunderstood word and get it defined correctly – and then go on.

The major fault in this quote is the fact that while the words themselves may have clear definitions, the point being made can still remain unclear. For example, I can say, "Tuna coffee table trust in the yellow first." We can all agree on the definitions of the words, but the statement itself is meaningless. From what I've read, all of LRH's writings are either meaningless, false, or ungrounded, so approaching a scn and asking the meaning of a quote, paragraph, or chapter is pointless; they simply don't know and that is a tough admission.

I suppose if the stars are in alignment as you state, then you are a prime mark for becoming a follower. But to put aside rational thought, for whatever reason, is a terrible loss of an important guidance and self-preservation mechanism; we can see the results of that in many lives in and out of scn.

Wieber · **Joined:** Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm **Posts:** 8393

xenuphobe wrote:

From what I've read, all of LRH's writings are either meaningless, false, or ungrounded, so approaching a scn and asking the meaning of a quote, paragraph, or chapter is pointless; they simply don't know and that is a tough admission.

There is a question on what used to be a "confessional" and now is a "security check." How times change, even in scientology. The question is approximately, "Is there anything L. Ron Hubbard wrote or said that you disagree with?" I say approximately because I am working from memory and do not have the text to copy. Should you say, "yes," to this question you are asked for the details of your disagreement and sent to "qual" ("the qualifications division, division five") for word clearing (at your expense) on the materials with which you disagree. So much for your freedom of mind in scientology.

Here's the thing. scientology works alright but it doesn't work to the ends, desires or goals of the people involved in it. It works to the ends, desires and goals of L. Ron Hubbard. Those ends, desires and goals are not stated anywhere in the materials of scientology.

Hubbard hinted at his ends, desires and goals occasionally as I believe he had great contempt for "scientologists." His ends, desires and goals can be deduced by looking at the actual results the application of his "technology" produces.

The other aspect of this is that the process of what scientology does to a person does not happen immediately. It takes time to change a person from the way they were before they were brought in. A "raw meat public" is not told about past lives, alien origins, the marcabs, suppressive persons, "OT levels," implant stations, or any of that other crap until after they have experienced the euphoric trance state induced by doing training routines (TRs) or getting "book one auditing."

When they are first contacted all that is supposed to happen is their "ruin" is found and then shoved in their face until they "cave in" on it. At that point they are told that scientology can help with that and ideally, for scientology, put on an introductory course that has training routines in it.

All cults operate in a similar fashion. Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan has a very good outline of how a person undergoes the conversion process. This video shows that process extremely well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

caroline · **Posted:** Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:25 pm

xenuphobe wrote:

Honest question: WTF? Are people actually taking notes on this stuff and taking it for fact? Didn't anyone have the guts to stand up and say, "What a load of crap! What are you people thinking?"

My theory, if you don't mind. I think LRH probably had a very vivid imagination growing up, and thought he was in store for some great accomplishments. When reality struck and he found that he wasn't measuring up to established standards (college failure, naval blunders), he invented his own standards. Right after the war, there were a lot of new technologies (nuclear physics, medicine, aeronautics) coming out, so it was the perfect time to introduce yet another technology. It is apparent to me that LRH was obsessed with trying to explain life using artifacts from his imagination. All he'd have to do is continually reinforce his imagination and come up with technical paradigms like flows, ridges, dispersals, wavelength, mass, particles, etc. Do this long enough, and you can ramble on for hours...and nobody can disprove you because you are the one who "discovered" all this stuff through "research" that is way above the abilities of the average mortal.

These tapes and transcripts are perfect evidence for showcasing the ramblings of a psychotic con-man. Anyone who is thinking of joining this "religion" should really have a listen to see for themselves what LRH was really all about. If someone can make it through a complete lecture and yearn for more, then scientology is just what they're looking for!

You're right, xenuphobe. I think a significant part of the answer to "WTF" is Hubbard's malignant programming. The new Golden Dawn lecture series includes 13 recorded "group processing" sessions where Hubbard demonstrated his brand of mass hypnosis. Wonder why the Golden Dawner's Apprentice is reflogging this crap now? This video may be instructive. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noXaXipdqBI

DM KNOWS it's going to require mass hypnosis like group processing, and millions of people running around the pole at the same time, to help Tom clean up this place.

Investment is a key reason and answer to your question, "What are you people thinking?" Scientologists apply Hubbard's dissemination and sales techniques to get people investing their money, time, allegiance, loyalty, etc. This investment keeps Scientology working, keeps Scientologists doing Hubbard's or Miscavige's will, and keeps the endless post-hypnotic solutions in place over time. The answer for investment in Hubbard and Scientology is to cut your losses, as early as possible.

See also: Ron the Swami and Ron the Brainwasher

Wieber · **Joined:** Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm **Posts:** 8393

Here's another one that demonstrates what happens in scientology although I believe that was not Matt Lucas' intention. This is from a show out of the UK called Little Britain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3bRsL2M3MM

xenuphobe · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm **Posts:** 100

Wieber wrote:

There is a question on what used to be a "confessional" and now is a "security check." How times change, even in scientology. The question is approximately, "Is there anything L. Ron Hubbard wrote or said that you disagree with?" I say approximately because I am working from memory and do not have the text to copy. Should you say, "yes," to this question you are asked for the details of your disagreement and sent to "qual" ("the qualifications division, division five") for word clearing (at your expense) on the materials with which you disagree. So much for your freedom of mind in scientology.

LOL, so I guess if you keep taking financial hits for disagreeing, you'll eventually learn not to disagree any more!

Wieber wrote:

All cults operate in a similar fashion. Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan has a very good outline of how a person undergoes the conversion process. This video shows that process extremely well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

Yeah, I've seen that video a few times...very good piece. Going back to my original question about his writings, I can now see how people indoctrinated using those methods can set aside independent rational thought and blindly accept his/their teachings. Unfortunately, once that barrier is broken, the individual becomes unable to become independent...this is IMHO the ultimate goal of scn.

Some questions about LRH early lectures

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