Random Thoughts

[lostinspace]

I've heard OT wins in the past which always sounded like yeah I wanted that, however the one that comes to mind for me was an attractive middle-aged woman and her big win and case gain was to end a very long committed relationship to a very nice successful man who was younger then her and wanted a child which she certainly could have had. Bigger point he was a wog. (Her word wog). And i recall thinking with a sick feeling at the pit of my stomach, if her EP, realization was to split up with a nice person I wasn't sure that I wanted that. By then I was way enough on the bridge and knew she pretty much was pressured to do this and complied. Then after everyone stop clapping a Sea Org member turned to me and said wow, that was a big thing in her Universe, what a thing to handle. I think my mouth may have dropped and I didn't say a word back to them and turned and left.
Just one of the many moments of my life as a Scientologist that left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Wieber]

So why did L. Ron have such an ugly body with such bad teeth?

It's a blasphemous question, I know, but I have to ask it.
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Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[caroline]

In an unsafe environment, and the org is full of SPs, ask yourself, what would Ron do? LFBD

Have a cigarette and sneer. LFBD F/N
(Ref. HCO PL The Ethics Officer, His Character)

Does DM sneer, and have a fag once in a while?
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[RedPill]

[curiosity]

Caroline, Thanks for linking to that PDF which I read. I thought it provided a good summary of the Scientology teachings about how souls get trapped in this universe. Yes, the reference to Scientology discovering the bioelectric field reminded me of Al Gore and the Internet, but oh well....

Leaving all discussion of body thetans out of that summary was an enormous omission, and you filled in the blanks well. After reading the references to body thetans you posted, I do not see why Scientology feels a need to keep those teachings confidential. It's just theory, and theories are meant to be published and discussed. I certainly did not get pneumonia and die from reading it. I just found it interesting and feel I understand Scientology's belief system a little better, although that doesn't mean that I'm ready to believe the Xenu story.

I am really fascinated by quantum physics. There have been a couple times after reading about it that I have experienced a subjective sense that my body and everything around me is very ephemeral, which is a natural consequence of reading about some of these things. Even science magazines have had headlines like, "Are You a Hologram?"

Quantum physics was already around when Hubbard was a college student, and I have no doubt that he had some exposure to the ideas if he took a class in nuclear physics at the university. Of course, the subject has come a long way since then, but I think to some extent Hubbard was once again trying to "one-up" somebody, this time the physicists and probably did not carefully follow developments in that science.

But ultimately, my concern is not to criticize people's ideas except to the extent that they inspire people to behave in destructive or antisocial ways. But what Scientologists need to understand is that in real science theories are debated, often vigorously and passionately, and that is what moves knowledge forward. Good academic debate is actually quite stimulating, and Scientologists miss out on that in regard to topics that interest them since Hubbard would not allow it in regard to his ideas.

[Wieber]

J. Swift posted this picture in another thread and I don't want to derail that thread so I brought it here.

When I first looked at this picture I thought someone had shooped it. Then I took a closer look. Oh, they're all turning sod with gold plated shovels.

But at first glance I thought they either had pogo sticks or those two wheeled scooters.

They may be shovels but those people are all in a position that looks like they could be riding those little two wheel scooters.

do not have the skill to take the shovels out and put scooters in. Anyone for shooping?
_________________
Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[caroline]

[img] smileforevercom/albums/i68/sadhu77/home5-1.jpg[/img]

Isn't that Marty Rathbun shoveling it alongside of DM?
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[Wieber]

What's with the expansion argument?

This video contains one example of a plethora of examples. In it scientology spokesperson, Alex Kutuzov, rebuts the recent news stories on scientology . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSnU_rVOR9k
. . . and she rebuts all the news stories by saying, "scientology has actually expanded in the last five years more than it has in the last fifty years."

Tommy Davis during his ABC debacle also used that argument. Speaking in rebuttal to what Marty Rathburn, Amy Scobee, Bruce Hines and Mike Rinder said.

During this segment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHk_Rt1K-dM
He said, "These are all people who were removed, either by Mr. Miscavige or their peers for gross misconduct and malfeasance in their positions. We were glad that they were gone and on top of that the church has literally taken off explosively since they were gone and frankly to a large extent because they're gone."

This is part of their "technology" for "shattering suppression." The way they do that is by "flourishing and prospering." During the course, Hubbard says that the best way to "shatter" a "suppressive person" is to "flourish and prosper." He never says how to "flourish and prosper." He just says to do it. Interestingly elsewhere in his writings he says that the "ability of a thetan is to make it go right." He doesn't say how to "make it go right." He just says to do it.

So the argument their spokespeople use in the face of criticism, defection by celebrities, loss of court cases or anything else negative is to say that scientology is "flourishing and prospering" even when it isn't. One of the main ways they do that is to say how rapidly scientology is growing and expanding.

It's also a great way for them to dodge any issues or questions. Next time there's a scientology spokesperson handling the "entheta" on any medium, watch for them to use this, "scientology is expanding" thing as part of their rebuttal.
_________________
Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[Wieber]

Psst, Davey, c'mere. Ssssh!

You should replace Tommy Davis with Alex Kutuzov.

Although she says the same crazy shit about scientology as Tommy does she's much easier on the eyes. People come away from watching Tommy Davis thinking, and rightly, that he's batshit crazy. They're not as likely to come away from watching Alex Kutuzov and thinking that about her.

Quick now, Davey. Bring Alex to the USA. Give her a nice comfy office. Give her a big salary - maybe $200 a week - I know that much pay to a sea organization staff member is painful for you but you need to do it. Otherwise it's only a matter of time until Alex leaves scientology and starts using her charming spokesperson skills against you.

Hey, man, take a Valium. (It's a figure of speech - means to calm down.) What the hell is your dog barking at?

Alright, Davey. Been good talking to you. Have a nice day.

Tick Tock Tick Tock. What? You don't like it when people say "Tick Tock Tick Tock?" I've heard Tory say it to you. I thought is was kind of an affectionate way to say goodbye. Hey, is your skin color normally that red? Man, you should see a doctor - a real doctor - not one of those scientolgy quacks that'll give you chloral hydrate or something. Whoa! I'm getting out of here before you blow up like a volcano. It's been real, Davey.
_________________
Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[Wieber]

Here's another phrase to watch for from scientology spokespeople.

"That's not true."

You will hear that, or a variation of it, from scientology spokespeople a lot.

I think it's supposed to stop someone from saying things about scientology that people in scientology think aren't nice or that, for them, shouldn't be said.
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Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[Wieber]

http://www.jesusandmo.net/
_________________
Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[Wieber]

This comes up a lot with people who have been involved in scientology and are now out or away from it and talking about their experiences. It has recently come up in on place but I'm not going to make a reference to that as doing so will focus on one place among many and the attention put on that may lead to other areas of thought or discussion and may also have a scapegoat effect on that individual.

What comes up is that there are some valuable things in scientology that have had a positive effect on a person and they are still using the valuable tools that they learned while in scientology - examples follow.

I could get specific with those aspects and examples that were cited but again that may serve as more of a distraction to what I'm getting at. Thoughts on the pros and cons of the examples and whether or not they are beneficial or detrimental would ensue and I don't want to go there.

For the sake of my argument I am going to go along with this and say there are some things in scientology from which an individual may derive a benefit for himself or herself in their life.

Now here's the point. It is those beneficial parts of scientology that allow the detrimental and abusive parts of scientology to exist. The detrimental and abusive parts of scientology outweigh the beneficial aspects in quantity and intensity by at least ten thousand to one.

Let me use the fishing analogy here as that often comes up when thinking about or discussing cults generally and scientology specifically.

When you go fishing you take a rod, reel, line, hooks, bob, sinkers, creel, bait and maybe a frying pan. You put bait on a hook on a line that has a bob and sinkers on it and you use your rod and reel to get the hook with the bait out to where the fish are.

The fish sees the bait. The bait happens to be tasty and nutritious. The bait is something that the fish sees as beneficial and would be beneficial if it wasn't attached to a hook on the end of a line attached to a rod and reel. The fish does not see the hook, line, sinkers, bob, rod, reel, creel, fisherman or frying pan. All the fish sees is the nice tasty nutritious bait. If that bait were not on the hook the fish would see the hook, give it a pass and not end up in the frying pan.

If the fish were caught and managed to somehow escape it would remember all the bad things that were involved with its experience but still might have fond memories of that nice tasty nutritious bait and think very rightly how beneficial to it that bait had been. It might even be tempted by bait again even knowing there was a hook involved and could somehow associate a frying pan with it.

For the fish there was something good there that it looked on as being good. For the person involved in scientology there is something there they see as being good. Because of that they put up with all the deleterious and detrimental things that make up the bulk of what scientology is about. When they finally leave in an attempt to sort things out they can see that there were beneficial aspects to the experience. Because of that they may even go back.

I put it to you that the parts of scientology that are beneficial are a very small part of the whole of scientology. I put it to you that the parts of scientology that are beneficial are used as bait and, in another analogy, as a carrot on a string. They are there to get a person in and keep them in so that the bad parts of scientology can then be used on that person to their detriment and so that one person or a very small number of people can derive a benefit.
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Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.

[magoo1]

Well put, Wieber!

I have often talked with X-Scientologists, or Scios who have left, and are
now out of C of $. Almost ALL of them had something they enjoyed, often
when they first got it. (the Bait, so to speak).

For myself (and some others I know), it was the first big "Win" on the Communications Course.
Believe it or not, many people (Self included) stayed on, working
hard to get back to that same feeling we had with that first "win".
(and to those reading this who were never "in", no--we didn't know this
or we would have left far sooner).

Time after time, things were "ok", not great, but HUGE promises from many others that the next level *will for sure* be *great*. Was it? Not even close.

The second biggest "win" for me was actually taking back my life, and leaving Scientology, forever. Once I knew what I knew---and I knew if for sure---which is why I stayed as long as I did stay, then and only then could I leave, knowing I'd lose ALL of my 30 year "friends" and my husband of 27 years, gaining one thing: True freedom.

My best to you

Tory/Magoo

[jax]

[Wieber]

During the year 2000 I got an "Auditor" newspaper from scientology that had a notice that said, and this may not be an exact quote but the number is, "There are now 50,000 clears." Up until that particular announcement the "Auditor" had published that up trending statistic in every issue. After that particular announcement the "Auditor" ceased to publish that statistic.

I'm sure the editors, executives, management and chairman of the board of scientology all suddenly realized just what an embarrassment that particular statistic was. I mean come on; Fifty thousand people achieving the state of clear in fifty years? Any way you look at it that statistic is embarrassing.

Then there was the campaign that came some time later to get 10,000 people on the "solo NOTs" of "OT 7." That was an issue directly from David Miscavage. The gist of it was that if scientology could get 10,000 people doing "OT 7" all at the same time, the "theta" generated by them would be sufficient to overcome the "planetary bank" and all the people on "Planet Teegeeack" would suddenly "cognite" and come flooding into scientology "orgs" demanding to hand over all their money in exchange for everything scientology has to offer.

You mean to tell me that after fifty years that the "fastest growing religion on the planet" with over twelve million members has less than ten thousand of those members who have achieved enough of "the bridge" to be on "OT 7?"

10,000 out of 12,000,000 reduces to one person per 1,200 members. If anyone were running a college or university where they were only graduating one out of every 1,200 students society at large would look on such an institution as an utter failure.

Any way scientology manipulates their numbers the conclusion is this: scientology has failed. It has failed to deliver its promises and it has failed to achieve its hidden agendas. Too bad, so sad, lower the curtain.
_________________
Reading List: http://www.worldcat.org./profiles/Wieber/lists/563909 scientology is a cult. -1 +1 "Then they fight you, then you win." Gandhi. scientology, check your six.