Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Your last point is the most important of all, and yes, they will and are eating themselves.
As I told them when I was "in", and have since I left: "YOU (C of $) are
C R E A T I N G your own enemies, daily".
Ok, let's try this: I'll put (C) for Caroline and (T) for myself. (It is long, but for those
interested, here's a bit more).
J. Swift wrote:
I want to repost these questions. I am curious on exactly how sec checks occur in the Cult. How is LRH's policy that Caroline posted actually applied?
(C):To the letter. There is nothing social or nice-nice about a standard sec check.(T): First the public needs to understand there are levels of "Security Checking".
1) Sea Org---re their 'overts' on staff, including just wanting to leave (and getting charged
big $$ for all the sec checking re this--IF they ever leave. It's called "A Freeloader's Debt"
Note: Staff also get security checked, although they're non-Sea Org)
2) Public: This depends on what level of "The Bridge" you're on. They don't really even start
until after Clear, I think. For me they didn't---until the OT levels. These are designed to see
"if you're ethical enough to be allowed on the OT levels. Can you keep "Security" (Secrets)
3) OT's Security Checks: They get worse, the higher you get
J. Swift wrote:
1. Who orders a sec check and why? My question here goes to threat level. If you are Sea Org or Staff, how many people can potentially order a sec check on you? If you are a public, how many people can potentially order a sec check on you? The next question becomes this: Are KR's written because people are afraid of sec checks? Does the threat of sec checks fuel the CoS Police State KR mentality where everyone reports on everyone else?
(C)Practically speaking, anyone senior to the individual can request or order a sec check on that person. The decision makers, however, are usually exec strata up to RTC (meaning Miscavige), but it could be case supervisors, Ethics personnel or OSA.
Routine sec checks such as "Eligibility for OT Levels" sec checks are done on everyone as a prerequisite for going on to OT levels. If you go away from Flag or AO for any length of time, you get a refresher sec check on your return. Solo auditors on OT VII get sec checked every six months. On staff there are "going on leave sec checks," "returning from leave sec checks," returning from mission sec checks," etc.(T) Agreed, re what C wrote above. Re KR's---those are not written out of fear of Sec checks,
that fear is built in from day one, with KSW-Keeping Scientology Working, and remember,
your ENTIRE future, and every man, woman and child's as well as your future, lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime--depends on you keeping in KSW, thus yes, writing KR's-not out of fear
of sec checks, but out of fear of ruining Scientology, forever, and blah blah blah.
No---again, it's ALL based on KSW. If you don't get it, watch "Tory Talks to CFI" in the programs
section of http://www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44 or on Xenutv.com
(It ALL boils down to $$$, basically)
J. Swift wrote:
2. Does a presumption of guilt apply in a sec check? Is the attitude, "You have crimes and we will discover them!"
(C)Depends on the circumstances. For an "Eligibility for OT Levels" sec check, the attitude might be something like "Let's get through this sec check so we can rocket you up the Bridge." If sec check questions don't read on the E-Meter, or if the sec checker doesn't find any dirt on the person, it's the sec checker's fault. Nobody's innocent for very long.
(T) Actually, no. I was highly crammed at Flag for doing that-having a presumption of quilt,
when we were trying to find out IF there was a Plant there, trying to steal the new OT 8 materials.
(way back when it first came out).
My meter was reading like mad with this person "Are you here to steal the OT 8 materials?"
The more it read (indicating there was *something* on it)...the worse I got. They had filmed it all, as I was on an Internship, and it was so bad, we played it for all on the Internship on "How NOT to do a Security Check".
Per "the tech"---you're supposed to just ask the questions in a calm, inquiring way. Obviously different people are no doubt better at this than others. The worst isn't how it's done, imnsho, but the questions, themselves. The questions assume you are an evil snake there to steal, spread lies, harm $cientology, and it's up to you to NOT read on the meter,
and if so, prove it was "just a protest read" (meaning you were thinking, "No--I did NOT steal the damn OT 8 materials" ---but it can go on, and on and on.
The worst for me was once I helped get my Mother-in-law onto OT 8, and thus was what is known as her "FSM", where I should have gotten 10% of what she paid. The Sea Org can NEVER be FSM's as they are not field staff members. However, the registrar---Charmain---who took the money, her husband was on the ship when she arrived, so HE filled out an FSM slip and was paid.
I called the shit to explain, "I am her FSM and that money was supposed to go to me". He agreed, said he'd fix it.
They didn't--so I started calling Charmain, as I didn't have her husband's number.
They never sent me the money--he never called, so each week I'd call her.
Now it's my OT 7, 6 month check. I fly there, do my typical "OT 7 security check"
"Did you talk about OT 7 with anyone?" "Did you steal any of the materials"
"Have you harmed LRH" etc. Etc. NO, NO, NO!
((All the while, *I* have to pay for this, at $7,000 every 12 1/2 hours...which adds up.
Ok, finally we're done with that. I think I'm going to now go onto my either cramming
(correction, which we had to pay for also) OR auditing/repair/review.
No. "Tory, you have a tailor made sec check now" Me: HUH?
"Pick up the cans,,,,I am not auditing you".
" What overts do you have on Charmain?"
"What overts to you have on Sea Org Members?"
This FUCKING SEC CHECK WENT ON AND ON AND ON..........WHEN SHE AND HER
GOD DAMNED HUSBAND HAD *STOLEN* MY MONEY!!!!!
And *I* had to pay for this.
(Literally---and fuck you OSA if you're reading this---I was ready to leap over
the table and bop the 'auditor'---but I knew that would just cost WAY more money,
so I kept it together. I said "FU OSA" as they'll interpret this as:
"See? That's why she blew---she had overts she never told".
NO______YOU all did a "Sec check" on me, when it should have been on Charmain and
husband, AND my $$$$ returned, morons! She STILL OWES ME THE $500 and yes, I'm going
to KEEP talking about it until they pay me, with interest!
Are you getting the picture, J. Swift? I hope so.
J. Swift wrote:
3. How accurate is a sec check? People talk about Scientology Tech not working, so what is the actual efficacy of a sec check? Is it 20% accurate or 100% accurate? How much does a person's belief in a sec check bias the result? In other words, how good of a lie detector is the E-Meter?
(C)You mean if a person has something to hide, can s/he keep the sec checker from finding out? It happens, obviously, but not very often if you're a standard sec checker. Sec checkers know their own necks are on the line if they miss an overt or withhold. By the time someone gets to an AO, they're seasoned Scientologists who know they're going to get their sec checker in big trouble if they don't "Give!" when interrogated.
It is no feather in anyone's hat to come up with nothing on a sec check. "No-overts" cases are looked on with a good deal of suspicion.
(T) Agree with C on this. Just so you know, IF a Security Checker misses ONE overt or withhold,
and it's found out------------they lose ALL (ALL --even if it took them years to earn up to Class 4 or 6 or 8 or 12)...of their certificates, and have to go back to go, retrain, re-paying for it all.
So most people don't want to create that kind of an effect, as Caroline says.
J. Swift wrote:
4. What does it feel like to have performed a brutal sec check on a person? Doesn't the person performing a sec check feel like it is an overt action?
(C) The biggest "overt" for sec checkers is to miss withholds on their subjects.(T) I think it's important to understand that most people doing security checks do not consider them "brutal". In fact, for me I bought Hubbard's line that it's like a confessional, where you go tell a priest your secrets, and thus feel better. Main diff is
1) In a real confessional, you originate what you want to say.
In Hubbard's---they ask you various questions, often ones that have *nothing* to do with
what you may or may not have done.
2) After a real confessional, you are to say various prayers---that's it.
After a Scientology confessional, your "overts" are written up to "Ethics", you go there,
and there you do various conditions on things you shouldn't have done. This is all per you,
not some arbitrary---although a tiny missing piece of info is it's never ending, really.
Even once you finish your "ethics conditions", if on the next Security Check, it comes up,
you'll be back to Ethics again, until it doesn't come up.
I would say there's a tiny relief after a Scientology security check, mostly that it's OVER.
(**Keep in mind I'm excluding Staff insanities like the Mission holder's conference in
1982 where, yes, those totally out tech "Sec Checks" (Group gang bangs really) done by
David-the whore-MISScavige, and were "brutal")
J. Swift wrote:
5. Who sec checks the sec checkers? One of the flaws is a sec checker failing to report accurate data uplines. For example, Jesse Prince sec checked DM per LRH's order. Apparently, Pat Broeker never relayed the results to LRH. Does a sec checker get sec checked if he or she does not give their seniors the answers that were expected or wanted?
(C)Sec checkers get sec checked like everyone else. In your example above, both Broeker and Prince could have expected sec checks.
(T) Correct. And I *think* soon after that both of them left Scientology, forever, or were put
on the RPF...where an entire other set of crap comes up, just due to being there, per all I've read.
J. Swift wrote:
6. People who have escaped from Int Base have described months and months of sec checking. How long can a sec check last? Is a long duration sec check actually intended to break a person's will so that they become slavishly obedient and caved in?
(C)You're talking about SO staff sec checks, so yes. Months and months of sec check sessions. It is not unusual for sec checks to last 12 1/2 hours, 25 hours or more of in-the-chair time.
Scientology interrogations probably have similar effects as CIA interrogations, although the indoc, PR and the "carrots" make them "palatable" enough.(T) Agree with C. Also, I've know young kids who were recruited into the Sea Org, promised
this and that, so they went.
Once they realized (Usually within days, if not a week or two) it was NOT what they thought,
they began asking to leave.
Thus began their security checks. Months of them, and once they finally left,
they were charged a HUGE amount of $$$ for these "Security Checks".
One of them I knew personally shot himself to death, and I have no doubt part of that
horribleness had to do with what they run on kids once they finally do leave.
IF You're lurking, and want out of $cientology, realize this:
1) You have a Constitutional right to leave.
2) You are NOT bad, horrible, a "DB" (degraded being) If you leave.
3) You may lose some friends, but as Andreas asked me, right before *I* left:
"What kind of friends could those be, if they're going to leave you just because
you changed your mind"
4) TONS of your friends are out---you just don't know it.
5) You are not a slave to C of $--no matter how much you may feel like it.
If you need help, give me a call.
Lots of love to all
If you have questions, please watch these videos:http://www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44http://www.xenutv.comhttp://www.xenu.net
Last edited by magoo1 on Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.