Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Gerry Armstrong wrote:
I have seen no proof that RR is Snoeck. In fact, RR has essentially denied this.
Roadrunner's old website on his OCMB profile was algonet.se/~tourtel/interests/hubbard-index.html.
It re-directs to wiseoldgoat.com/index_scientology.html (Michel Snoeck's website). Snoeck is Roadrunner.
As you will all recall we engaged that guy in debate here from late February, 2008 until April, 2008 when he finally got banned. It was pretty much impossible to debate him and few if us took him seriously.
Gerry Armstrong wrote:
It has not been proven that there is such a person who listens to the name Michel Snoeck. I am aware that "Roadrunner" and "Spacetraveler" have for years been a person assuming identities that have been identified with someone who says he listens to the name "Michel Snoeck."
The Internet entities Roadrunner and Spacetraveler have been, in my experience, willfully, flagrantly dishonest and cruel. “Their” targets have been Scientology’s victims and the victims' proponents in specific forums. The entity “Snoeck” shares those targets and the “basis” for attack on them. In the Scientology v. Armstrong war, “they’re” all on Scientology’s side, in fact wage actions in that war.
What is common among all Scientologists is the religion’s Suppressive Person doctrine. That's what governs their relationships. SPs are wogs who tell the truth about Scientology. Scientologists, of course, don’t tell the truth about Scientology, because lying is so necessary to being Scientologists. Relatively few wogs, however, know much truth about Scientology to be able to tell it. Those are the SPs that Scientologists in all of their beingnesses, even the apparently deranged like Barbara Schwarz or the sociopathic like Roadrunner, the organized Scientologists under Miscavige, or the disorganized Scientologists with Rathbun, attack and pursue in alignment with scriptural dictates on the treatment or handling of SPs such as "Battle Tactics."
Proof is the establishment by evidence of a requisite degree of belief concerning a fact in the mind of the trier of fact or the court. (Cal. Ev. Code)
I’ll use L. Ron Hubbard as an example. The evidence I have seen has been sufficient to prove to me that he was L. Ron Hubbard until the day he died. There’s probably enough evidence on my site and on the rest of the Internet about me to prove to a reasonable person as the trier of fact that I’m Gerry Armstrong. There’s not enough evidence that I’ve seen, as the trier of fact I must be for myself, to prove that there is a Michel Snoeck.
And by the way, it isn’t relevant to me at all, or important to know, if the entity that is Roadrunner, Spacetraveler and Snoeck is Snoeck, John Jones or J'onn J'onzz, or Wilma Flintstone. The name is not the person. I’m not, therefore, going to spend any time attempting to gather the evidence to establish what these entities’ identity or identities is or are.
Back to Hubbard, see, e.g., this January 9, 1952 report prepared by the Denver Office of the FBI concerning his Allied Scientists of the World scheme:
Confidential Informant xxx of known reliability, reported that beginning about November 19, 1951, the subject organization began mailing out letters from Denver, Colorado, to scientists throughout the United States and its territory enclosing literature on subject organization and advising recipients that they were elected to "fellowship in our organization." Informant reported that such letters were signed AGNES DOBSON, Secretary to the Board of Governors. Enclosed with the letters was a brochure describing the purposes and history of the subject organization. Also included was a sheet of paper entitled "A Message From the Board of Governors" and a sheet of paper entitled "Please Fill Out and Return for our Directory" which is an application for membership in the subject organization as a fellow and enclosing $25 for membership.So here was this guy that an informant the FBI considered reliable reported as showing up in Denver in early November 1951, saying he listens to the name Dean Carnahan, and signing contracts on behalf of ASW for an office space and telephone. Presumably and logically Carnahan also makes payments for the office and telephone service. Also see where ASW hired two local Denver women Patricia Gallagher and Elizabeth Clark. (This had to have been part of what was blowing Don Purcell's mind, budget and stack.)
Confidential Informant xxx of known reliability, reported that a man who gave his name as DEAN CARNAHAN representing subject organization signed certain contractual agreements to establish an office of subject organization in Denver, Colorado, such as telephone and office space at 941 East 17th Ave. Denver, Colorado. This informant stated that CARNAHAN was in Denver around the early part of November, 1951, making the above-mentioned arrangements.
Confidential Informant xxx of known reliability, stated that the first employee known to this informant at their offices at 941 East 17th Ave., Denver, Colorado, was a young woman named MARY ROSS who subsequently resigned and returned to Oklahoma City.
Confidential Informant xxx reports that it has been impossible to clearly identify DEAN CARNAHAN who made the original contacts in Denver, Colorado, for the establishment of subject organization in this city. This informant stated that it is his belief that DEAN CARNAHAN was a name used by LAFAYETTE RON HUBBARD, Wichita, Kansas.
Confidential Informant xxx of known reliability, reports that the home office of the organization is in Wichita, Kansas, and has an office at 941 East 17th Avenue, Denver, Colorado.
Confidential Informant xxx reports the subject organization is sponsored by the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation of Wichita, Kansas, and that organization has followers in California, Kansas, and New Jersey.
Confidential Informant xxx reports that the activities of this organization thus far has consisted of merely mailing out letters to scientists throughout the United States and territories for the purpose of soliciting support and financial aid.
Confidential Informant xxx reports that the organization has been mailing out a letter from the "Office of PATRICIA GALLAGHER, Assistant for Information
Confidential Informant xxx reports that Mr. HENRY MOORE who is presently employed in subject organization office in Denver, Colorado, reports that the office will be closed on January 10, 1952, and moved to the home office, 211 West Douglas, Wichita, Kansas.
OFFICERS AND PERSONNEL
LAFAYETTE RON HUBBARD
This individual is identified as the President of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation and author of the book "Dianetics - The Modern Science of Mental Health."
Confidential Informant xxx reports that an individual using the name DEAN CARNAHAN made the various contractual arrangements regarding the renting of office space and securing a telephone for the subject organization at 941 East 17th Avenue. Xxx reports that from a description of DEAN CARNAHAN it is this informant's opinion that CARNAHAN is an alias used by LAFAYETTE RON HUBBARD mentioned above.
DONALD G. PURCELL
This person is a listed member of the Board of Governors of the subject organization. And the vice-chairman of the subject organization. PURCELL is a Wichita home builder and is stated to be an official also of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation.
JOHN W. MALONEY
This individual is listed as the Secretary and Treasurer of subject organization and is stated to be employed by the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation.
Confidential Informants xxx and xxx report that MARY ROSS was the first employee of subject organization at its offices at 941 East 17th Avenue.
Informant states that MARY ROSS lived at the YWCA in Denver, Colorado, and around December 1, returned to her home in Oklahoma City and has not returned to Denver.
The communications referred to above, wherein numerous scientists were advised that they were elected to fellowship in the subject organization were signed by AGNES DOBSON. The letterhead of subject organization also contained information that AGNES DOBSON was Secretary to the Board of Governors.
Confidential Informant xxx advised that no one by the name AGNES DOBSON worked at the subject organization office in Denver, Colorado. Confidential Informant xxx reports that it is his opinion that MARY ROSS used the name AGNES DOBSON.
PERRY A. CHAPDELAINE
Confidential Informant xxx reported that on [1/2 line blacked out] Mr. CHAPDELAINE, 4662 Oak Street, Wichita, Kansas. CHAPDELAINE advised that he was now in charge of the Denver Office of the subject organization and that he did not know the identity of AGNES DOBSON and DEAN CARNAHAN.
Confidential Informant xxx advised that CHAPDELAINE resigned from the organization around January 1, 1952, and left the city.
Confidential Informant xxx reported that PATRICIA GALLAGER worked in the Denver Office of subject organization, having been hired by MARY ROSS. Informant stated that PATRICIA GALLAGHER lived at 125 East 18th Avenue, Denver, Colorado. Informant also advised that PATRICIA GALLAGHER resigned her position with this organization around January 1, 1952.
It is to be noted that literature received about this organization from Confidential Informant XXX reflects that PATRICIA GALLAGHER is listed as the "assistant for information."
ELIZABETH E. CLARK
Confidential Informant xxx reported that ELIZABETH E. CLARK, 1324 Ogden Street, Denver, Colorado, was employed as a stenographer in the offices of the subject organization but has subsequently resigned her position with this organization.
Confidential Informant xxx reports that HENRY MOORE arrived in Denver around December 26, 1951, and advised informant he was now in charge of the Denver office of subject organization. Informant further learned from MOORE that he, MOORE, intended to close up the Denver Office, sell the furniture, and move the organization's office to Wichita, Kansas.
All these actions, and even signatures on contracts, do not mean, however, that Dean Carnahan was actually Dean Carnahan. In fact, the evidence led an FBI Informant to form the belief, uncontradicted in the mass of FBI files I've seen, that Carnahan was a name used by L. Ron Hubbard.
An FBI informant was reported as having obtained a physical description of Carnahan (which is a particular level of evidence and often admissable in legal proceedings) and formed the opinion that Carnahan was an alias used by L. Ron Hubbard.
So far, in the present paradigm, Michael Snoeck is to ARS what Dean Carnahan was to ASW.
Evidence could conceivably be gathered that would prove that Snoeck is one Michel Snoeck, but to my knowledge no such evidence has been presented. I'll grant you that someone representing himself as Michel Snoeck has a photo of someone on his site, but on information and belief that person could equally be someone known to me as Stilzchen.
In other words, L. Ron Hubbard telling everyone in November in Denver in 1951 that his name was Dean Carnahan is not much different from some Scientologist or Wog saying in 2011 that his name is Michel Snoeck.
What the FBI didn't know, and we now know, Hubbard had admitted in a letter to Robert and Virginia Heinlein, postmarked November 9, 1951 from Wichita, Kansas, that he had been almost on the Heinleins' front door in Colorado Springs, CO the previous week. Hubbard wrote that he was "up to some shennanigans [sic] near you."
Colorado Springs is 66 miles south of Denver. Wichita is 440 miles east of Denver, easily driveable. In a December 4, 1951 letter to Heinlein, Hubbard boasted of having a new 212 HP Chrysler New Yorker.
Hubbard calling himself Dean Carnahan and opening up an office in Denver for Allied Scientists of the World easily qualify as shenanigans. And the early part of November 1951 was when "Carnahan" was in Denver making the office arrangements.
Regarding the other ASW personnel identified in the FBI report, Donald G. Purcell, John W. Maloney, and Perry A. Chapdelaine are known persons. The reading question is, who is Mary Ross?
Agnes Dobson isn't likely to be a fruitful search because it's been reported that although Agnes Dobson was identified as "Secretary to the Board of Governors" on ASW letterhead, and although Agnes Dobson signed communications for ASW, no one that actually listened to the name Agnes Dobson worked at ASW. The reporting informant formed the opinion, which has remained uncontradicted as far as I can tell, that Mary Ross used the name Agnes Dobson. Sort of like Snoeck using the name Roadrunner.
The FBI report contained certain identifying information about Mary Ross. She was the first employee of ASW in Denver, indicating she was around when Carnahan was making arrangements, or Hubbard was up to his shenanigans. She was a young woman, lived at the YWCA in Denver, left around December 1, 1951, and did not return. She apparently communicated that her home was in Oklahoma City, OK, and she was returning there.
Russell Miller writes about that period in Bare-Faced Messiah:
Among the motley collection of well-meaning people who trekked to Wichita in the summer of 1951 was a slim, pretty girl from Houston, Texas, by the name of Mary Sue Whipp. Born in Rockdale, Mary Sue was a nineteen-year-old coed at the University of Texas intent on making a career in petroleum research. She arrived in Wichita with a friend, Norman James, who had read about Dianetics in Astounding and had persuaded her to join him on the course. Blue-eyed and auburn-haired, Mary Sue aroused predictably mixed feelings at the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation. Most of the men liked her; most of the women did not. 'She was a nothing,' said Helen O'Brien sourly. 'Her favourite reading was True Confession.'Although the evidence I've seen does not prove that Mary Ross was Mary Sue Whipp, it does establish in me a belief that she was. Mary Sue went on to run the nefarious Guardian's Office and to order untold covert ops and crimes against individuals, groups and governments. So she was certainly capable of this kind of duplicity for Hubbard while she was young and single and he was boinking her.
It did not take long for Hubbard to register the arrival of this attractive pre-clear from Texas and he took a particular interest in her progress. Mary Sue was flattered by the great man's attention and within a matter of a few weeks she had moved in with him at 910 North Yale, to the fury of the housekeeper, who found herself relegated to more conventional duties. Mary Sue rapidly qualified for her Hubbard Dianetic Auditor's Certificate and joined the staff of the Foundation as an auditor, all thoughts of a career in the petroleum industry abandoned.
In November and December, Hubbard played a starring role in FBI communications when he became enthused, temporarily, by an extraordinary enterprise straight from the pages of his own science fiction and smacking faintly of world domination. His idea was to establish an alliance of leading international scientists and to store all the latest scientific research on microfilm in an atom-bomb-proof archive somewhere in Arizona. In this way, he argued somewhat obscurely, individual nations would be denied the technical capacity to wage a nuclear war. Hubbard called the project 'Allied Scientists of the World' [the name of an organisation that had featured in his novel 'The End Is Not Yet'] and chose Perry Chapdelaine to supervise its inauguration.
'Ron telephoned me at three o'clock in the morning and said he needed me real bad,' Chapdelaine recalled. 'I got dressed and went over to his house and we sat in the front room where he told me all about his plan for Allied Scientists of the World. His stated goal was to stop war in the world. He thought with Allied Scientists he could control war and in that way control the world. That was what he wanted, no question.'
Chapdelaine was despatched in great secrecy - 'Hubbard told me to make sure no one knew he was behind it, I've no idea why' - to Denver, Colorado, where the headquarters of Allied Scientists of the World was to be established. His orders were to organize a mass mailing of scientists and technicians who would be informed that they had been awarded fellowships in Allied Scientists of the World in recognition of their scientific achievements and invited to send in annual dues of $25.
The timing could not have been worse. 'Thousands of leaflets went out,' said Chapdelaine, 'but only one or two came back.' Instead, the FBI was deluged with requests from recipients of the mail-shot to investigate the organization as a possible Communist front organization - such was the power of McCarthyism. The FBI soon established that L. Ron Hubbard was behind Allied Scientists: inter-Bureau memoranda now contained the information that 'several individuals' alleged he was 'mentally incompetent' and a report from the Kansas City office noted that he had 'delusions of grandeur'.
When Post Office inspectors began an investigation of Allied Scientists for possible violation of mail fraud statutes, Hubbard beat a rapid retreat and abandoned the venture. But he was, as always, untroubled by trouble. At the Foundation's New Year party, which was held in a Wichita hotel and featured a live orchestra and a floor show, he was the life and soul of the festivities. 'He danced a great deal,' said Helen O'Brien, 'with a light and exact rhythm that was completely without grace. There was something attention-arresting in the way he handled himself. Many almost worshipped him in those days, but there were other individuals who looked at him askance, with something close to fear.'
For Don Purcell, the Allied Scientists fiasco was almost, but not quite, the last straw. According to Chapdelaine, Purcell was 'frantic, almost hysterical' over the ill-starred enterprise. 'He was scared to death that it would reflect on him,' said Chapdelaine. 'He was afraid of what Hubbard might do next.'
In March, Hubbard took a break from hostilities to marry Mary Sue Whipp, who was by then two months pregnant. To avoid the three-day waiting period required by the state of Kansas, they drove across the state line into Oklahoma where it was possible to be married instantly by a Justice of the Peace. Mary Sue would later provide friends with two versions of the circumstances: one had Hubbard knocking on her door in the middle of night shouting, 'Susie, you're the girl I'm going to marry. Get your things, we're leaving.' In the other, they eloped with her parents in hot pursuit and got a JP out of bed to perform the ceremony, still in his pyjamas.
Back in Wichita, the new Mrs Hubbard assumed partial responsibility for running the Hubbard College, which occupied the second floor of a modern office building on North Broadway. It only stayed in business for just six weeks, but it was long enough for the founder to gather together, by telegram, as many loyal followers as he could find to attend a convention at which he promised to present 'important new material'.
So, it looks like Agnes Dobson was an alias used by Mary Ross, which was an alias used by Mary Sue Whipp. In the instant situation, it's Roadrunner being an alias used by Michel Snoeck, which could be an alias used by Leon Brown.
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.