I am surprised by this statement, purely because when I met you in London, Terril Park was brandishing a 'Freezone' picket sign and YOU asked me, "You're not a freezoner are you?" From the tone of your voice, I was inclined to think you were not into the freezone at all. I obviously got it all wrong. I have been a staunch supporter of you and your story inside of scientology for a very long time. I talk about you alot, I think It is great that you finally found your way out after so long.I need to know this, did you ever meet LRH personally?

Unfortunately, I never had long enough to talk to you about the things I really wanted to talk about.

Caroline, thank you for posting this thread and linking all of the history and information that goes along with it.

I don't post much anymore and have been completely immersed in a family matter the last 2 years being a full-time caregiver for my Grandmother who has Parkinson's Syndrome. It takes everything I have (mentally and physically) these days. But this thread really piqued my interest and something sparked.

The real question is WHY won't Marty tell the truth? (and that includes Rinder).

Rinder claimed that he had enough information already to put David Miscavige behind bars. What are he and/or Marty waiting for? The second coming? And I'm not talking about Christ.

I think Marty's treatment and attitude towards Gerry and this goes towards other exes who don't buy into the "it's all DM" and not LRH boat, is very telling and a major concern for me and many other people.

We've been talking about DM and calling him names for years, WAY before M&M showed up.

A lot of the things that Marty and Mike are "exposing" about Int and DM have already been discussed, and in some cases years before ever being mentioned on Marty's blog. Too bad BFG and I didn't start our own blog. Hind site is 20/20 though.

Marty is being credited with getting a lot of people to leave the CoS. I would put it another way though. People are and have been leaving the CoS in floods for years without Marty and his blog. David Miscavige himself has gotten more people to leave the CoS than any of us have really. The difference between you and I and Marty is that he's been quite the opportunist in being able to "handle and salvage" those people who are currently jumping ship and offering them more Scientology to keep them in the fold while brilliantly saying that it wasn't LRH or Scientology, but one man, DM who ruined the whole game.

I am always for freedom of belief and freedom of speech. But, I am against destructive or harmful practices towards other people. People who don't believe that Scientology is a harmful practice need to think again and do more research on the subject itself. The information is totally available if one looks.

On the Scientology Org Board there is a division called Division 6C (Field Control Division) - Div 6 as a whole being the Public Division. The valuable final product of the Field Control Division is a thriving and controlled field of active Scientologists. The use of the word "controlled" is pretty key because that's what Hubbard himself intended with the use of Scientology technique - top that with the overall purpose of making money, and making more money (which is policy numero uno). DM has been trying to control the members of Scientology and it's field just as LRH intended. DM however doesn't have the charm and charisma that Hubbard had, and is from Philly, so there you go.

Marty and the "Indy" crowd fit right there on Scientology's (CoS's) Org Board under Division 6C whether they like it or not. Going all the way back to the 60's, Sea Org Missions have been fired to "clean up a muddy field." These are missions sent out to get people "cleaned up," get their ARC Breaks with Hubbard and Scientology resolved and back on the Bridge to Total Freedom as "active" Scientologists - CONTROLLED Scientologists. In this case though, it doesn't matter if these people are active CoS Scientologists or not, but from my observation, to prevent real litigation and prosecution towards David Miscavige and other Senior Execs (including "EX") that could be roped into that court room and possibly put behind bars. For example, we KNOW about Lisa McPherson and Marty's involvement with having key documents destroyed to protect the Church. But what else do we not know that should be in the court room - the whole truth and nothing but, so help you God?

Think about this, a lot of the people who are leaving and joining up with Marty are people who held very high posts at the Int Base and worked closely with David Miscavige for years. Between all of them there must be hundreds of years of experience of having worked right next to the man, and yet there's no Class Action or Court case? Yet, what we are getting is a bunch of boo hiss towards Miscavige and how he alone fucked it all up. You want the truth, and we all want the truth, but missing is Marty's truth about LRH and the fact that he's attempting to salvage Scientology and the image of L. Ron Hubbard. We're still hearing the same OSA and Marketing PR lines and Ron Mag issues from a camp that's supposedly all about truth.

I know Gerry was in the Sea Org and worked in some very sensitive areas. I'm sure what I've written above is ringing some bells.

Another thing, when I blew from the Int base 11 years ago, I was STILL on the fence about the whole thing. In other words, my own feeling was that maybe Hubbard and the Tech was all good but it was just management and the Sea Org that was all wrong. Luckily for me, there was no Marty or INDY scene for me to get sucked into. I discovered ARS and THIS website and that's all I needed to find out the real truth about L. Ron Hubbard and what he was all about. The AFFIRMATIONS were KEY in getting me to wake up immediately and never look back. Having been a hardcore, card carrying, 23 years long Scientologist, raised in it from childhood - 10 of those years being a seasoned SO member at the Int base and having worked on staff prior to that to almost immediately finding the truth and leaving ALL of it behind in a matter of a couple months is what happened for me. No way stops. No R and R before realizing it's all bunk. It was almost instantaneous with finding out about Hubbard and his actual history.

Marty and Mike OTOH are trying to rewrite that history and continue the whitewash, which has already been a long-time-going GO/OSA op from the get go.

Caroline and Gerry, I wish you the best of luck in getting Marty to change his attitude and help you with providing the truth, but fact of the matter is that you are both an enemy of LRH, Marty's best friend. And that's why he won't help you and never will until he wakes the fuck up from dreamland.

Cheers,
John

Thanks for explaining the above, Tory. As I'm sure you know, my position with respect to Scientology and Indie Scientology is fundamentally different from yours. I haven't seen any evidence that the FZ is a "Bridge out" as you say, although I've heard the meme repeated for awhile and no doubt it can sound good or even be comforting.

It seems to me that the "Bridge Out" idea is virtually an admission that Scientology doesn't work. If Scientology doesn't work, and you and I know that it doesn't work, why expose people you care about to more of what doesn't work? If the people in the FZ also know it doesn't work, doesn't that makes them scammers too? If the FZers who are delivering this Bridge Out don't know that it doesn't work, or don't know that what they're selling and delivering is a Bridge Out, isn't that kind of nuts?

Are the people you know in the FZ who charge money for Scientology actually selling their services as a Bridge Out of Scientology?

That may very well be true---but I don't think they see it that way. I'm just telling you how *I* see it, from the Barnes story. They are the only people I know, who left and told me they would not have w/out the FZ.



Caroline: Again......what you and I know to be true, and what others may feel is true are obviously two totally different things...and we've never really even sat and discussed what we each believe, ftr. I was done with Scientology the DAY I got onto OT 7, Part C---and there was NO "Berry Klein Rundown",which I asked for, and was routed immediately to Cramming. (Barry pitched one could "Heal" people on OT 7). Turns out there IS no ref's to healing, for anyone lurking: SAVE YOUR $$$$!

I learned working with OSA, years ago, they WANT "Critics" to be against ALL of Scientology.
That way (and they told me this) "We can go to other religions and tell them: "you'd better support *us* as this *COULD* Happen to YOU". And I've met with 3 Scientologists: Gayle Moran, Tim Bowles and s/one else, Me, My Minister friend and Jeff Jacobson and a bunch of local ministers. They had invited him to meet with them. I told him, "They'll lie through their teeth, you'll sound insane, and it won't work. He invited me-I went, and sure enough ...they lied through each point he brought up.

SO finally I asked if *I* could speak. I said, "If you believe, as you just read, that "Man has the inalienable right to free speech, free thought" Why is it not ONE Of my 30 year "Friends" nor my husband of 27 years can even speak with me, _EVER". "You declare people SP and hang them out to dry". The top dog/minister they'd been working on Said: "You don't *really* declare people "SP" do you? (He was grossed out). Gayle: "Well, only a small %: Hitler was an SP, and Tory is an SP" ((BINGO! For me, that was perfect! What a sick analogy. Each of the ministers looked at *me*, thought about Hitler and looked horrified). So I said, "First off, that is a TOTAL lie: you've declared THOUSANDS Of people AND organizations SP, and any of the ministers here can go on the Net and read their list. Secondly, would anyone here like to SEE my SP declare?"

You could have heard a pin drop in that room. THAT party was OVER. The big dood minister they were trying to handle stood up, thanked me, told me he was "So sorry you've had to experience this abuse" and told me I could call him any time. He took my New Times LA article Tony Ortega had written, and left without even saying "Good-bye" to the Scios.

So you see? That line drew right there. They wouldn't back of C of $ IF they're going to be doing
shit like that, and I know I (and you and anyone else) could sit and educate them about these abuses any day, and get quite far with it. BUT ...if we're going to go after what people believe? That's a totally different horse. Someone I love, Bill Maher, goes after religions consistently quite well. He's good at it, and keeps a good sense of humor, which I think you need in cases like that.

So for me, I speak out against the abuses of C of $. If grown adults want to keep at it---that's their choice. Frankly, as long as they're not harming others, (breaking up fam's, fair game, med abuses, fraud, roping in young kids, etc)---I feel that's their choice. (And I understand others feel VERY strongly against that, and I respect their views, too). I try (TRY) to keep a Buddhist/Toaist view of love, peace, allowance, inclusion.


These are questions you need to ask FZers. I'm not one..don't talk with them, don't really have their views on things.


I think they only FZ person I really knew was Alan, and he was VERY offended if anyone called him that. To him, he was NOT a FZer. I just mean, someone out, trying to use any of "The tech". Now he re-wrote his own stuff, so not sure he does count.

I know a few "indies" .........again, you'd have to ask them. I have no idea what they sell anything as. Trey Lots is a field auditor now, that I used to know when we were both "in". I doubt he'd say he sells it as that. I doubt anyone does. It's just what the Barnes told me, back in 2000, that sort of stuck as how anyone could possibly support or not smash the FZ. For me, I see those peeps are a bridge out of an extremely abusive organization where people are NOT allowed to speak, look, read, listen, hear, even THINK. Once OUT---they can do ALL of that, and from there, wake up, fully.

Hope that helps. : PEACE:

Tory/Magoo

PS: There's a thread on esmb about Mark and Marty, also.

I thought this quote tells the best how I feel:




What a *great* description of Mark, and the many people
I admire and why I admire them so. Andreas was the first person I ever met
who fits that description, and he has taught me, and many others, quite a lot.

Tory/Magoo

BTs2free wrote:

I think as long as this remains true, it places M&M fundamentally at odds with Gerry and anyone else who sees a different truth about LRon. And as long as this remains true, M&M will never help Gerry or anyone else whose goal is to expose the truth about LRon. Which now that I think about, it seems odd that they are cooperating with Bunker on his film, assuming that his film will address this subject to a greater or lesser extent. Or maybe it won't. It is called "Knowledge Report". Who or what is the "knowledge report" on? Current CoS (i.e. David Miscavige) or the whole shebang (subject of scientology)?

Anyway, given the above, it seems the only way to get M&M to help Gerry, is to forcefully compel them to help by way of whatever legal tools might apply to any existing or ongoing open cases or appeals- such as subpoenas, depositions, etc. Maybe they would have to be directly named. I guess they could continue to lie, as they have done in the past, or even lie under oath. But maybe some of their lies might contradict the kinds of things they are writing, saying and doing now? They speak out now against the Fair Game-ing that is being done to them, when they were intimately involved with the Fair Game-ing of so many others, and there is plenty of evidence of that, correct? Yet- do they still insist Fair Game as a policy was cancelled by LRon? I do think it is very sneaky of the them to so carefully sidestep any admission of guilt in the harming of others over all those years, which from what I understand is the case (that there have been no admissions of guilt). I assume those that read their blog (I do not), pour over it looking for this kind of thing.

So far it seems the Indie mentality is that anyone who sees LRon as a 'con artist of man' instead of a 'savior of man', is an SP, because they are anti- and suppressing the spread of scientology. Yet now, they have befriended Bunker? Bunker and many others (including myself so far) feel Indies have the right to believe whatever they want as long as they do not harm others in the carrying out of those beliefs. Is this now the new (Indie) deciding factor to determine whether or not one is an SP? Befriending Bunker did cause some controversy among the fold at Marty's place. Will this divide the Indies into hardliners and softliners?

Helping Bunker by contributing to his film obviously does not involve any admission of guilt on M&M's part, so I guess it is "safe" for them. Caroline, maybe someone like Bunker could mediate between Gerry and M&M, not in an official capacity, but in a humanitarian capacity? It seems to me the Gerry v. CoS/M&M story could be/should be the subject of an entire documentary in itself!

Yes, you have spoken out about Scientology's abuses for many years, including the abuse you yourself experienced and survived. For example this post you wrote in 2007 , where you wrote about how the Scientologists telling you that your previous handlings regarding your medication were "suppressive" and how they tried to get you off medication based on three references, including "Physically Ill PCs" written by Hubbard. You persisted in that case, and very possibly saved your own bacon. I applaud that, Tory.

However, in the real world, those three references were never cancelled, were they? How many other people have Scientologists ordered off medications based on "standard" Scientology? How many other Scientologists are still paying for the claimed "physical wins" you talked about?



Let's take Marty Rathbun then. He sells and delivers Scientology, including NOTs. I'm sure you're aware of that, right? You said in this post earlier this year:



But in the same post you also said this:



Karen De La Carriere promotes that she delivers the entire Bridge. It is apparent from Marty's site that they act in concert. I can't imagine that either Marty or Karen are doing all that selling and delivering of Scientology as a Bridge out of Scientology.

Does Marty know that you see his work or Karen's work as a "Bridge Out?" I must assume that Marty knows you would recommend people to him as a "Bridge Out." If you sent someone to Marty with the view that they were now on the "Bridge Out," how do you suppose Marty would change his delivery of NOTs for your friend, "selectee", etc? I don't think he would. He's selling standard Scientology, which both you and I know is harmful, even to the point where it could threaten people's lives.

As for me, I oppose Scientology and I can't and don't support people who sell, promote or deliver Scientology. No Loyalists have come forward with a sensible reason why I should support them. (See Dear Loyalist Think Tankers.)

Now after all this time has passed with no sensible reason provided, the issue for me has broadened to whether I support the people who support the people who deliver Scientology and seek its acceptance and expansion. That's why I'm discussing this with you here now. The idea that sending people to Marty, whose function is to get them or keep them doing Scientology, as a "Bridge Out" of Scientology is not sensible enough to be a reason to support the Indies.

I don’t know what Mark’s cosmic view is that he operates under. Can you please explain or describe it. Also Andreas’ cosmic view would be instructive.

I assume that you too have a cosmic view the same as the many people you admire, so also please explain or describe your own cosmic view. And if you could distinguish between people not operating under a cosmic view, and how you’re able to perform the distinguishing.

*****

This is clearly an important issue because you’re presenting Mark as someone not only to be admired, but virtually perfect, so I’m glad that’s on the table.

Surely it’s no more difficult to love the rest of the people, those who don’t consistently and persistently operate under a cosmic view and consider all human beings from all sides in his communication.

To me, because I try to understand what the words mean, and they do have meaning for me, the idea of considering all human beings from all sides, in communications, or otherwise, is an attribute of God. Human nature and ability does not permit considering all human beings from all sides.

By “consider,” I’m assuming that you and the person you’re quoting mean to “think carefully about.” (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consider)

I agree that it is possible for a human to consider or think carefully about a lot of things. It is possible to consider or think carefully about the planet’s population. It’s not possible, however, to consider or think carefully about all these billions individually, in the same way that you can consider or think carefully about yourself.

It is also not possible for humans to consider or think carefully about anything from all sides, let alone considering all human beings from all sides, while communicating or otherwise operating.

It seems to me that rather than present this totally unreal and unreachable standard for people to admire or strive for, it’s better to tell the truth.

The truth is that Mark, Andreas, you, me or anyone cannot consider all human beings from all sides. Just give it a try; consider Mark from the side or perspective of a nuclear physicist, or an auk. Since it is impossible to consider all human beings from all sides, and indeed impossible to consider even what all the sides are from which human beings can be considered, it can be seen that it is just as easy to love human beings that don’t consider all human beings from all sides; because that’s the only kind of human beings there are.

Obviously this ability to consider all human beings from all sides is important to you and others, and according to you affects communications. Yet that ability doesn’t exist. It seems clear then that it is the ability’s non-existence that is what is important about it for human beings.

The delusion that you or someone else is considering all human beings from all sides, of course, prevents the acceptance of the truth that you aren’t doing this and can’t do it. Accepting that no one considers all human beings from all sides means that you have to go somewhere other than to your own ability to get that consideration of all human beings done for you. That’s humbling naturally, but it’s not delusory.

Caroline..........

As much as I've tried to explain how I feel...I just keep feeling like
I'm saying the wrong thing, over and over. I hate typing and if you'd like,
I'd be happy to talk on the phone.

My best to you and Gerry.

Tory/Magoo
(818) 588-3044

Caroline:
PS: Please do all of us (Meaning you, me and Gerry) a favor and don't just assume things. In this case, you are 100% incorrect. I've never in person/directly referred, suggested, or offered that anyone join, pay for, or get ANY Scientology ANYTHING---since the DAY I escaped out, July 20, 2000..and really even when I was "in" I only got a few people to do services: My mother and father-in-law for OT 7 and One for OT 8. That's IT. (You may find quotes of mine---saying IF you are "in" and won't leave unless you can still get "the tech"---there IS the tech delivered out here, outside of the abusive organization known as C of $", or some such comment).

The people I speak with are ready to leave, and I've helped many find ref's on the Net, (Xenu.net, xenutv.com, and even WWP, etc) and books (("You Can Heal Your Life", "Captive Hearts, Captive Minds" and Steve Hassan's books), etc. To help them leave and take back their lives.

I've tried to give you THE example Greg and Debra Barnes gave me, when we all left.
That's what they told me, and I've tried to explain it to you, as I saw it then, and still do.
I'm sorry you disagree with this example. I doubt it's gotten *anyone* to leave....but somehow
you seem to think so. Again, if you'd like to continue this, please give me a jingle.

Tory, I don't think a telephone call between us would be appropriate or helpful in this case. It would only delay the resolution of the problem or conflict if it can be resolved. This isn't a private matter that should be taken out of a public discussion.

The issues and consequences of supporting Marty, and supporting Marty supporters, are important right now in Scientology's war against SPs.

I understand if you need some time to think things over.

Thank you for that explanation Tory, I have seen the video with Greg and Debra Barnes, can't say I understood why they still needed to follow the 'tech', I guess it's a need to cling on to something. I do understand that devoting so much of your life to something that you believed in, only to find out it was all based on a lie is a very hard thing to let go of. Believe me, I really do.

The same with Allen and Knowledgism or whatever he called it, he couldn't let go.The same way Terril Park can't let go, the same way many Freezoners/indies whatever can not let go. I am not without compassion for these people whom spent so much of their life following something that they thought was doing good for the world.Unfortunately there are so many oldtimers names I know from the original sea org days and there are so many of them still following some kind of extended scientology. Making money out of peoples vulnerabilities. How can that be right? Then you have jerks like Terril Park,and he's not the only one, who not only writes stupid success stories, but tries to draw in young teenage impressionable people into his stupid quackery.Whether he succeeds or not is besides the point.The point is he says one thing, but does another, just like LRH.

He even declared me an enemy, via e-mail, whilst expressing he wanted to be friends. How can you be friends with someone who does everything you oppose?

I guess we'll find out in Mark Bunker's film.

You'll always have my support and love for I know only too well the battle you have fought.
Lots of Love,
Sharone

Thanks John. It means a lot to Gerry and me, and ultimately to the whole SP class.

Thanks too for taking care of your grandmother. We’ll probably all need someone to take care of us like that some day.

I believe that Marty and Mike won’t tell the truth because the truth would set a lot of people free, and it serves their purposes to keep people trapped. Gerry said your post was thought-provoking for him and he’ll respond separately.

You asked what in addition to the truth of Lisa McPherson should be in a court room, and the biggest, most monstrous case that should be in a court room is Scientology v. Armstrong. This includes, of course, Scientology v. persons acting in concert with Gerry, like me. That’s the case that Marty and Mike could most help if they told the truth. And that’s why they don’t do it.

I think Marty’s awake and Mike’s awake enough, and they aren’t exactly in dreamland. They’ve been too cynical for too long. I think it’s a matter of them in their awake state simply growing a backbone. People with backbones tell the truth.

The task appears to be then getting them to see that backbonelessness is fail and that having a backbone is a good thing, even though they’d have to use it to have it. Maybe they have to wake up to the fact that they’re cowards.

In any case I believe it will be clear when or if Marty or Mike wake up and grow a backbone, and they haven’t.

I was struck by this insight:



This relationship, and the relationship that DM and Scientology have adopted regarding everyone on this planet actually, makes Scientology a relevant issue for us all, and one of legitimate concern.