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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:20 am 
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It isn't my intention to cut up the Indie movement..I've said since I left and people asked
me if I was for or against the "Freezone"....I was for it, not in it, but I'm happy people use whatever as long as it isn't hurting others. Why?
Because I see it as a bridge OUT. Once OUT---people *can* read, look, listen and begin
to connect the dots. Many people would never have left, if there was "nothing" out here.
Once out---many have realized there's LOTS more to life than "The tech"...even in the spiritual
areas. That realization came to me while on OT 7 and I was trying to sort out "What can I do to
stop these gawd awful massive migrain headaches?" From reading TONS of "Self-Improvement
books--I realized There is *tons* of other great information out here, much WAY better than
Scientology, for me.

I am surprised by this statement, purely because when I met you in London, Terril Park was brandishing a 'Freezone' picket sign and YOU asked me, "You're not a freezoner are you?" From the tone of your voice, I was inclined to think you were not into the freezone at all. I obviously got it all wrong. I have been a staunch supporter of you and your story inside of scientology for a very long time. I talk about you alot, I think It is great that you finally found your way out after so long.I need to know this, did you ever meet LRH personally?

Unfortunately, I never had long enough to talk to you about the things I really wanted to talk about.

_________________
Look at our brokenness.
We know that in all Creation
Only the human family
Has strayed from the sacred way.

Teach us love,compassion,honour
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other.(part of an Ojibway prayer)


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:12 am 
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Quote:
"What is needed from Marty is the truth."


Caroline, thank you for posting this thread and linking all of the history and information that goes along with it.

I don't post much anymore and have been completely immersed in a family matter the last 2 years being a full-time caregiver for my Grandmother who has Parkinson's Syndrome. It takes everything I have (mentally and physically) these days. But this thread really piqued my interest and something sparked.

The real question is WHY won't Marty tell the truth? (and that includes Rinder).

Rinder claimed that he had enough information already to put David Miscavige behind bars. What are he and/or Marty waiting for? The second coming? And I'm not talking about Christ.

I think Marty's treatment and attitude towards Gerry and this goes towards other exes who don't buy into the "it's all DM" and not LRH boat, is very telling and a major concern for me and many other people.

We've been talking about DM and calling him names for years, WAY before M&M showed up.

A lot of the things that Marty and Mike are "exposing" about Int and DM have already been discussed, and in some cases years before ever being mentioned on Marty's blog. Too bad BFG and I didn't start our own blog. Hind site is 20/20 though.

Marty is being credited with getting a lot of people to leave the CoS. I would put it another way though. People are and have been leaving the CoS in floods for years without Marty and his blog. David Miscavige himself has gotten more people to leave the CoS than any of us have really. The difference between you and I and Marty is that he's been quite the opportunist in being able to "handle and salvage" those people who are currently jumping ship and offering them more Scientology to keep them in the fold while brilliantly saying that it wasn't LRH or Scientology, but one man, DM who ruined the whole game.

I am always for freedom of belief and freedom of speech. But, I am against destructive or harmful practices towards other people. People who don't believe that Scientology is a harmful practice need to think again and do more research on the subject itself. The information is totally available if one looks.

On the Scientology Org Board there is a division called Division 6C (Field Control Division) - Div 6 as a whole being the Public Division. The valuable final product of the Field Control Division is a thriving and controlled field of active Scientologists. The use of the word "controlled" is pretty key because that's what Hubbard himself intended with the use of Scientology technique - top that with the overall purpose of making money, and making more money (which is policy numero uno). DM has been trying to control the members of Scientology and it's field just as LRH intended. DM however doesn't have the charm and charisma that Hubbard had, and is from Philly, so there you go.

Marty and the "Indy" crowd fit right there on Scientology's (CoS's) Org Board under Division 6C whether they like it or not. Going all the way back to the 60's, Sea Org Missions have been fired to "clean up a muddy field." These are missions sent out to get people "cleaned up," get their ARC Breaks with Hubbard and Scientology resolved and back on the Bridge to Total Freedom as "active" Scientologists - CONTROLLED Scientologists. In this case though, it doesn't matter if these people are active CoS Scientologists or not, but from my observation, to prevent real litigation and prosecution towards David Miscavige and other Senior Execs (including "EX") that could be roped into that court room and possibly put behind bars. For example, we KNOW about Lisa McPherson and Marty's involvement with having key documents destroyed to protect the Church. But what else do we not know that should be in the court room - the whole truth and nothing but, so help you God?

Think about this, a lot of the people who are leaving and joining up with Marty are people who held very high posts at the Int Base and worked closely with David Miscavige for years. Between all of them there must be hundreds of years of experience of having worked right next to the man, and yet there's no Class Action or Court case? Yet, what we are getting is a bunch of boo hiss towards Miscavige and how he alone fucked it all up. You want the truth, and we all want the truth, but missing is Marty's truth about LRH and the fact that he's attempting to salvage Scientology and the image of L. Ron Hubbard. We're still hearing the same OSA and Marketing PR lines and Ron Mag issues from a camp that's supposedly all about truth.

I know Gerry was in the Sea Org and worked in some very sensitive areas. I'm sure what I've written above is ringing some bells.

Another thing, when I blew from the Int base 11 years ago, I was STILL on the fence about the whole thing. In other words, my own feeling was that maybe Hubbard and the Tech was all good but it was just management and the Sea Org that was all wrong. Luckily for me, there was no Marty or INDY scene for me to get sucked into. I discovered ARS and THIS website and that's all I needed to find out the real truth about L. Ron Hubbard and what he was all about. The AFFIRMATIONS were KEY in getting me to wake up immediately and never look back. Having been a hardcore, card carrying, 23 years long Scientologist, raised in it from childhood - 10 of those years being a seasoned SO member at the Int base and having worked on staff prior to that to almost immediately finding the truth and leaving ALL of it behind in a matter of a couple months is what happened for me. No way stops. No R and R before realizing it's all bunk. It was almost instantaneous with finding out about Hubbard and his actual history.

Marty and Mike OTOH are trying to rewrite that history and continue the whitewash, which has already been a long-time-going GO/OSA op from the get go.

Caroline and Gerry, I wish you the best of luck in getting Marty to change his attitude and help you with providing the truth, but fact of the matter is that you are both an enemy of LRH, Marty's best friend. And that's why he won't help you and never will until he wakes the fuck up from dreamland.

Cheers,
John

_________________
Hammering out of existence incorrect technology would include $cientology itself!


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:41 am 
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Posts: 2315
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magoo1 wrote:
Thank you, Caroline, (and Gerry, of course) for all the info you've
shared. Hopefully the above shall happen soon.

Last year I told a group of Indie's, "As long as you all keep trying to paint Hubbard
as all "white", you will be attacked, as the FACTS are out there." This year 2 of them
have left the Indie movement, that I know of. (No doubt more..but 2 came and told me)

It isn't my intention to cut up the Indie movement..I've said since I left and people asked
me if I was for or against the "Freezone"....I was for it, not in it, but I'm happy people use whatever as long as it isn't hurting others. Why?
Because I see it as a bridge OUT. Once OUT---people *can* read, look, listen and begin
to connect the dots. Many people would never have left, if there was "nothing" out here.
Once out---many have realized there's LOTS more to life than "The tech"...even in the spiritual
areas. That realization came to me while on OT 7 and I was trying to sort out "What can I do to
stop these gawd awful massive migrain headaches?" From reading TONS of "Self-Improvement
books--I realized There is *tons* of other great information out here, much WAY better than
Scientology, for me.

I see it as an educational process---and a willingness to face one's past, which for many can
be quite difficult to do.

We'll see where it all goes--hopefully sooner rather than later.

For Gerry (and you) ....he's certainly suffered long enough w/ ALL the :bs:
C of $ has put on him, and now you, too, Caroline.

:sigh:

Time................is...........on..........our............side.

Tick Tock............tick..........tock!~

Blessings :alien:

Tory/Magoo


Thanks for explaining the above, Tory. As I'm sure you know, my position with respect to Scientology and Indie Scientology is fundamentally different from yours. I haven't seen any evidence that the FZ is a "Bridge out" as you say, although I've heard the meme repeated for awhile and no doubt it can sound good or even be comforting.

It seems to me that the "Bridge Out" idea is virtually an admission that Scientology doesn't work. If Scientology doesn't work, and you and I know that it doesn't work, why expose people you care about to more of what doesn't work? If the people in the FZ also know it doesn't work, doesn't that makes them scammers too? If the FZers who are delivering this Bridge Out don't know that it doesn't work, or don't know that what they're selling and delivering is a Bridge Out, isn't that kind of nuts?

Are the people you know in the FZ who charge money for Scientology actually selling their services as a Bridge Out of Scientology?

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:00 pm
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Quote:
I am surprised by this statement, purely because when I met you in London, Terril Park was brandishing a 'Freezone' picket sign and YOU asked me, "You're not a freezoner are you?" From the tone of your voice, I was inclined to think you were not into the freezone at all. I obviously got it all wrong. I have been a staunch supporter of you and your story inside of scientology for a very long time. I talk about you alot, I think It is great that you finally found your way out after so long.I need to know this, did you ever meet LRH personally?


Hey tam....
Oh gawd no! You got it totally right: I'm not, nor have I ever been a FZer. However, as I was trying to explain, and I guess failed at---I watched the FZ deal be a bridge out for Greg and Debra Barnes. (I really only know a few people who are FZers, really. I don't hang with them, I'm not really in communication with anyone I can think of who is a FZer. (If I am and missed you, speak up please). The closest were the Barnes' who left right around when I did. Now I just left. They were different in that they told me (and I believe it's on Video) they wouldn't have left, except for the FZ being there.

Now what happened with that? That's my example. They went to see Alan Walter (Hi Alan :wink: Sadly no longer w/ us) He even told me He was not in the FZ (so I'm not quite sure what the FZ really is, except for Terrill---who my observation was he seemed to piss off a bunch of people in London pitching LRH)> But Back to the Barnes----

Per their own words, they "Went to see Alan, and we did a little bit of the tech. Then we realized we are done, done--forever. However the big thing for us is we wouldn't have left if we couldn't have done some tech. And once out---we were now free to read, look, listen and learn and thus totally changed our minds". So see? It was that bridge OUT I was speaking about.

Nope: I never met Hubbard. My X-Husband and his parents did in the 50's.

Lots of love to you, and thank you for your support over the years!

Tory/Magoo :alien:


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:20 am 
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Quote:
Luckily for me, there was no Marty or INDY scene for me to get sucked into. I discovered ARS and THIS website and that's all I needed to find out the real truth about L. Ron Hubbard and what he was all about. The AFFIRMATIONS were KEY in getting me to wake up immediately and never look back. Having been a hardcore, card carrying, 23 (Me 30) years long Scientologist, (cut out as I wasn't raised in it, but did get in at 22)..... to almost immediately finding the truth and leaving ALL of it behind in a matter of a couple months is what happened for me. No way stops. No R and R before realizing it's all bunk. It was almost instantaneous with finding out about Hubbard and his actual history


Hi BTs2Free!!!

Ya know---I happily had a similar experience when I left. As you well know, I spilled out into
MANY critics of Scientology, and Stacy, Bob, Jesse, Mark Bunker---and from ALL those peeps, I learned
SO MUCH so fast. I'd left, literally due to "DM". That was IT. (and all the crap I'd experienced and witnessed). BUT_____Quickly I was gotten "up to speed" on many areas, including Hubbard popping
pills--which I don't think I have to tell you what effect that had on *me*.

Lots of love to you :cheers:

Tory/Magoo


Last edited by magoo1 on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:39 am 
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Quote:
It seems to me that the "Bridge Out" idea is virtually an admission that Scientology doesn't work.


That may very well be true---but I don't think they see it that way. I'm just telling you how *I* see it, from the Barnes story. They are the only people I know, who left and told me they would not have w/out the FZ.

Quote:
If Scientology doesn't work, and you and I know that it doesn't work, why expose people you care about to more of what doesn't work?


Caroline: Again......what you and I know to be true, and what others may feel is true are obviously two totally different things...and we've never really even sat and discussed what we each believe, ftr. I was done with Scientology the DAY I got onto OT 7, Part C---and there was NO "Berry Klein Rundown",which I asked for, and was routed immediately to Cramming. (Barry pitched one could "Heal" people on OT 7). Turns out there IS no ref's to healing, for anyone lurking: SAVE YOUR $$$$!

I learned working with OSA, years ago, they WANT "Critics" to be against ALL of Scientology.
That way (and they told me this) "We can go to other religions and tell them: "you'd better support *us* as this *COULD* Happen to YOU". And I've met with 3 Scientologists: Gayle Moran, Tim Bowles and s/one else, Me, My Minister friend and Jeff Jacobson and a bunch of local ministers. They had invited him to meet with them. I told him, "They'll lie through their teeth, you'll sound insane, and it won't work. He invited me-I went, and sure enough ...they lied through each point he brought up.

SO finally I asked if *I* could speak. I said, "If you believe, as you just read, that "Man has the inalienable right to free speech, free thought" Why is it not ONE Of my 30 year "Friends" nor my husband of 27 years can even speak with me, _EVER". "You declare people SP and hang them out to dry". The top dog/minister they'd been working on Said: "You don't *really* declare people "SP" do you? (He was grossed out). Gayle: "Well, only a small %: Hitler was an SP, and Tory is an SP" ((BINGO! For me, that was perfect! What a sick analogy. Each of the ministers looked at *me*, thought about Hitler and looked horrified). So I said, "First off, that is a TOTAL lie: you've declared THOUSANDS Of people AND organizations SP, and any of the ministers here can go on the Net and read their list. Secondly, would anyone here like to SEE my SP declare?"

You could have heard a pin drop in that room. THAT party was OVER. The big dood minister they were trying to handle stood up, thanked me, told me he was "So sorry you've had to experience this abuse" and told me I could call him any time. He took my New Times LA article Tony Ortega had written, and left without even saying "Good-bye" to the Scios.

So you see? That line drew right there. They wouldn't back of C of $ IF they're going to be doing
shit like that, and I know I (and you and anyone else) could sit and educate them about these abuses any day, and get quite far with it. BUT ...if we're going to go after what people believe? That's a totally different horse. Someone I love, Bill Maher, goes after religions consistently quite well. He's good at it, and keeps a good sense of humor, which I think you need in cases like that.

So for me, I speak out against the abuses of C of $. If grown adults want to keep at it---that's their choice. Frankly, as long as they're not harming others, (breaking up fam's, fair game, med abuses, fraud, roping in young kids, etc)---I feel that's their choice. (And I understand others feel VERY strongly against that, and I respect their views, too). I try (TRY) to keep a Buddhist/Toaist view of love, peace, allowance, inclusion.

Quote:

If the people in the FZ also know it doesn't work, doesn't that makes them scammers too? If the FZers who are delivering this Bridge Out don't know that it doesn't work, or don't know that what they're selling and delivering is a Bridge Out, isn't that kind of nuts?


These are questions you need to ask FZers. I'm not one..don't talk with them, don't really have their views on things.
Quote:
Are the people you know in the FZ who charge money for Scientology actually selling their services as a Bridge Out of Scientology?


I think they only FZ person I really knew was Alan, and he was VERY offended if anyone called him that. To him, he was NOT a FZer. I just mean, someone out, trying to use any of "The tech". Now he re-wrote his own stuff, so not sure he does count.

I know a few "indies" .........again, you'd have to ask them. I have no idea what they sell anything as. Trey Lots is a field auditor now, that I used to know when we were both "in". I doubt he'd say he sells it as that. I doubt anyone does. It's just what the Barnes told me, back in 2000, that sort of stuck as how anyone could possibly support or not smash the FZ. For me, I see those peeps are a bridge out of an extremely abusive organization where people are NOT allowed to speak, look, read, listen, hear, even THINK. Once OUT---they can do ALL of that, and from there, wake up, fully.

Hope that helps. : PEACE:

Tory/Magoo


Last edited by magoo1 on Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:33 am 
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PS: There's a thread on esmb about Mark and Marty, also.

I thought this quote tells the best how I feel:


Quote:
So much love for Mark Bunker! Never met him, don't have to.

Difficult to not love someone who consistently, and persistently, operates under a cosmic view and considers all human beings from all sides in his communication.


What a *great* description of Mark, and the many people
I admire and why I admire them so. Andreas was the first person I ever met
who fits that description, and he has taught me, and many others, quite a lot.

Tory/Magoo :love7:


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:58 pm 
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BTs2free wrote:
Quote:
You want the truth, and we all want the truth, but missing is Marty's truth about LRH and the fact that he's attempting to salvage Scientology and the image of L. Ron Hubbard. We're still hearing the same OSA and Marketing PR lines and Ron Mag issues from a camp that's supposedly all about truth.

I think as long as this remains true, it places M&M fundamentally at odds with Gerry and anyone else who sees a different truth about LRon. And as long as this remains true, M&M will never help Gerry or anyone else whose goal is to expose the truth about LRon. Which now that I think about, it seems odd that they are cooperating with Bunker on his film, assuming that his film will address this subject to a greater or lesser extent. Or maybe it won't. It is called "Knowledge Report". Who or what is the "knowledge report" on? Current CoS (i.e. David Miscavige) or the whole shebang (subject of scientology)?

Anyway, given the above, it seems the only way to get M&M to help Gerry, is to forcefully compel them to help by way of whatever legal tools might apply to any existing or ongoing open cases or appeals- such as subpoenas, depositions, etc. Maybe they would have to be directly named. I guess they could continue to lie, as they have done in the past, or even lie under oath. But maybe some of their lies might contradict the kinds of things they are writing, saying and doing now? They speak out now against the Fair Game-ing that is being done to them, when they were intimately involved with the Fair Game-ing of so many others, and there is plenty of evidence of that, correct? Yet- do they still insist Fair Game as a policy was cancelled by LRon? I do think it is very sneaky of the them to so carefully sidestep any admission of guilt in the harming of others over all those years, which from what I understand is the case (that there have been no admissions of guilt). I assume those that read their blog (I do not), pour over it looking for this kind of thing.

So far it seems the Indie mentality is that anyone who sees LRon as a 'con artist of man' instead of a 'savior of man', is an SP, because they are anti- and suppressing the spread of scientology. Yet now, they have befriended Bunker? Bunker and many others (including myself so far) feel Indies have the right to believe whatever they want as long as they do not harm others in the carrying out of those beliefs. Is this now the new (Indie) deciding factor to determine whether or not one is an SP? Befriending Bunker did cause some controversy among the fold at Marty's place. Will this divide the Indies into hardliners and softliners?

Helping Bunker by contributing to his film obviously does not involve any admission of guilt on M&M's part, so I guess it is "safe" for them. Caroline, maybe someone like Bunker could mediate between Gerry and M&M, not in an official capacity, but in a humanitarian capacity? It seems to me the Gerry v. CoS/M&M story could be/should be the subject of an entire documentary in itself!

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:13 pm 
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magoo1 wrote:
So for me, I speak out against the abuses of C of $. If grown adults want to keep at it---that's their choice. Frankly, as long as they're not harming others, (breaking up fam's, fair game, med abuses, fraud, roping in young kids, etc)---I feel that's their choice. (And I understand others feel VERY strongly against that, and I respect their views, too). I try (TRY) to keep a Buddhist/Toaist view of love, peace, allowance, inclusion.[/color]


Yes, you have spoken out about Scientology's abuses for many years, including the abuse you yourself experienced and survived. For example this post you wrote in 2007 , where you wrote about how the Scientologists telling you that your previous handlings regarding your medication were "suppressive" and how they tried to get you off medication based on three references, including "Physically Ill PCs" written by Hubbard. You persisted in that case, and very possibly saved your own bacon. I applaud that, Tory.

However, in the real world, those three references were never cancelled, were they? How many other people have Scientologists ordered off medications based on "standard" Scientology? How many other Scientologists are still paying for the claimed "physical wins" you talked about?

magoo1 wrote:
Quote:
If the people in the FZ also know it doesn't work, doesn't that makes them scammers too? If the FZers who are delivering this Bridge Out don't know that it doesn't work, or don't know that what they're selling and delivering is a Bridge Out, isn't that kind of nuts?


These are questions you need to ask FZers. I'm not one..don't talk with them, don't really have their views on things.
Quote:
Are the people you know in the FZ who charge money for Scientology actually selling their services as a Bridge Out of Scientology?


I think they only FZ person I really knew was Alan, and he was VERY offended if anyone called him that. To him, he was NOT a FZer. I just mean, someone out, trying to use any of "The tech". Now he re-wrote his own stuff, so not sure he does count.

I know a few "indies" .........again, you'd have to ask them. I have no idea what they sell anything as. Trey Lots is a field auditor now, that I used to know when we were both "in". I doubt he'd say he sells it as that. I doubt anyone does. It's just what the Barnes told me, back in 2000, that sort of stuck as how anyone could possibly support or not smash the FZ. For me, I see those peeps are a bridge out of an extremely abusive organization where people are NOT allowed to speak, look, read, listen, hear, even THINK. Once OUT---they can do ALL of that, and from there, wake up, fully.

Hope that helps. : PEACE:

Tory/Magoo


Let's take Marty Rathbun then. He sells and delivers Scientology, including NOTs. I'm sure you're aware of that, right? You said in this post earlier this year:

magoo1 wrote:
Can the "tech" harm people? My opinion is the lower bridge stuff is fairly harmless, almost like "talk therapy". Where it gets VERY bad is from OT 3 on up----often the worst cases were OT 5-OT 8.


But in the same post you also said this:

magoo1 wrote:
Would I refer people to Marty's? Sure...I would, IF they wanted to do the "Bridge", had been turned onto the critical web sites exposing any and all abuses, and still wanted "the tech"---I see Marty, and or the Freezone as a bridge OUT.


Karen De La Carriere promotes that she delivers the entire Bridge. It is apparent from Marty's site that they act in concert. I can't imagine that either Marty or Karen are doing all that selling and delivering of Scientology as a Bridge out of Scientology.

Does Marty know that you see his work or Karen's work as a "Bridge Out?" I must assume that Marty knows you would recommend people to him as a "Bridge Out." If you sent someone to Marty with the view that they were now on the "Bridge Out," how do you suppose Marty would change his delivery of NOTs for your friend, "selectee", etc? I don't think he would. He's selling standard Scientology, which both you and I know is harmful, even to the point where it could threaten people's lives.

As for me, I oppose Scientology and I can't and don't support people who sell, promote or deliver Scientology. No Loyalists have come forward with a sensible reason why I should support them. (See Dear Loyalist Think Tankers.)

Now after all this time has passed with no sensible reason provided, the issue for me has broadened to whether I support the people who support the people who deliver Scientology and seek its acceptance and expansion. That's why I'm discussing this with you here now. The idea that sending people to Marty, whose function is to get them or keep them doing Scientology, as a "Bridge Out" of Scientology is not sensible enough to be a reason to support the Indies.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 pm 
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magoo1 wrote:
PS: There's a thread on esmb about Mark and Marty, also.

I thought this quote tells the best how I feel:


Quote:
So much love for Mark Bunker! Never met him, don't have to.

Difficult to not love someone who consistently, and persistently, operates under a cosmic view and considers all human beings from all sides in his communication.


What a *great* description of Mark, and the many people
I admire and why I admire them so. Andreas was the first person I ever met
who fits that description, and he has taught me, and many others, quite a lot.

Tory/Magoo :love7:


I don’t know what Mark’s cosmic view is that he operates under. Can you please explain or describe it. Also Andreas’ cosmic view would be instructive.

I assume that you too have a cosmic view the same as the many people you admire, so also please explain or describe your own cosmic view. And if you could distinguish between people not operating under a cosmic view, and how you’re able to perform the distinguishing.

*****

This is clearly an important issue because you’re presenting Mark as someone not only to be admired, but virtually perfect, so I’m glad that’s on the table.

Surely it’s no more difficult to love the rest of the people, those who don’t consistently and persistently operate under a cosmic view and consider all human beings from all sides in his communication.

To me, because I try to understand what the words mean, and they do have meaning for me, the idea of considering all human beings from all sides, in communications, or otherwise, is an attribute of God. Human nature and ability does not permit considering all human beings from all sides.

By “consider,” I’m assuming that you and the person you’re quoting mean to “think carefully about.” (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consider)

I agree that it is possible for a human to consider or think carefully about a lot of things. It is possible to consider or think carefully about the planet’s population. It’s not possible, however, to consider or think carefully about all these billions individually, in the same way that you can consider or think carefully about yourself.

It is also not possible for humans to consider or think carefully about anything from all sides, let alone considering all human beings from all sides, while communicating or otherwise operating.

It seems to me that rather than present this totally unreal and unreachable standard for people to admire or strive for, it’s better to tell the truth.

The truth is that Mark, Andreas, you, me or anyone cannot consider all human beings from all sides. Just give it a try; consider Mark from the side or perspective of a nuclear physicist, or an auk. Since it is impossible to consider all human beings from all sides, and indeed impossible to consider even what all the sides are from which human beings can be considered, it can be seen that it is just as easy to love human beings that don’t consider all human beings from all sides; because that’s the only kind of human beings there are.

Obviously this ability to consider all human beings from all sides is important to you and others, and according to you affects communications. Yet that ability doesn’t exist. It seems clear then that it is the ability’s non-existence that is what is important about it for human beings.

The delusion that you or someone else is considering all human beings from all sides, of course, prevents the acceptance of the truth that you aren’t doing this and can’t do it. Accepting that no one considers all human beings from all sides means that you have to go somewhere other than to your own ability to get that consideration of all human beings done for you. That’s humbling naturally, but it’s not delusory.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Caroline..........

As much as I've tried to explain how I feel...I just keep feeling like
I'm saying the wrong thing, over and over. I hate typing and if you'd like,
I'd be happy to talk on the phone.

My best to you and Gerry.

Tory/Magoo
(818) 588-3044


Caroline:
Quote:
Does Marty know that you see his work or Karen's work as a "Bridge Out?" I must assume that Marty knows you would recommend people to him as a "Bridge Out." If you sent someone to Marty with the view that they were now on the "Bridge Out," how do you suppose Marty would change his delivery of NOTs for your friend, "selectee", etc? I don't think he would. He's selling standard Scientology, which both you and I know is harmful, even to the point where it could threaten people's lives.

PS: Please do all of us (Meaning you, me and Gerry) a favor and don't just assume things. In this case, you are 100% incorrect. I've never in person/directly referred, suggested, or offered that anyone join, pay for, or get ANY Scientology ANYTHING---since the DAY I escaped out, July 20, 2000..and really even when I was "in" I only got a few people to do services: My mother and father-in-law for OT 7 and One for OT 8. That's IT. (You may find quotes of mine---saying IF you are "in" and won't leave unless you can still get "the tech"---there IS the tech delivered out here, outside of the abusive organization known as C of $", or some such comment).

The people I speak with are ready to leave, and I've helped many find ref's on the Net, (Xenu.net, xenutv.com, and even WWP, etc) and books (("You Can Heal Your Life", "Captive Hearts, Captive Minds" and Steve Hassan's books), etc. To help them leave and take back their lives.

I've tried to give you THE example Greg and Debra Barnes gave me, when we all left.
That's what they told me, and I've tried to explain it to you, as I saw it then, and still do.
I'm sorry you disagree with this example. I doubt it's gotten *anyone* to leave....but somehow
you seem to think so. Again, if you'd like to continue this, please give me a jingle.


Last edited by magoo1 on Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:36 pm 
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magoo1 wrote:
Caroline..........

As much as I've tried to explain how I feel...I just keep feeling like
I'm saying the wrong thing, over and over. I hate typing and if you'd like,
I'd be happy to talk on the phone.

My best to you and Gerry.

Tory/Magoo
(818) 588-3044


Tory, I don't think a telephone call between us would be appropriate or helpful in this case. It would only delay the resolution of the problem or conflict if it can be resolved. This isn't a private matter that should be taken out of a public discussion.

The issues and consequences of supporting Marty, and supporting Marty supporters, are important right now in Scientology's war against SPs.

I understand if you need some time to think things over.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:41 pm 
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magoo1 wrote:
Quote:
I am surprised by this statement, purely because when I met you in London, Terril Park was brandishing a 'Freezone' picket sign and YOU asked me, "You're not a freezoner are you?" From the tone of your voice, I was inclined to think you were not into the freezone at all. I obviously got it all wrong. I have been a staunch supporter of you and your story inside of scientology for a very long time. I talk about you alot, I think It is great that you finally found your way out after so long.I need to know this, did you ever meet LRH personally?


Hey tam....
Oh gawd no! You got it totally right: I'm not, nor have I ever been a FZer. However, as I was trying to explain, and I guess failed at---I watched the FZ deal be a bridge out for Greg and Debra Barnes. (I really only know a few people who are FZers, really. I don't hang with them, I'm not really in communication with anyone I can think of who is a FZer. (If I am and missed you, speak up please). The closest were the Barnes' who left right around when I did. Now I just left. They were different in that they told me (and I believe it's on Video) they wouldn't have left, except for the FZ being there.



Now what happened with that? That's my example. They went to see Alan Walter (Hi Alan :wink: Sadly no longer w/ us) He even told me He was not in the FZ (so I'm not quite sure what the FZ really is, except for Terrill---who my observation was he seemed to piss off a bunch of people in London pitching LRH)> But Back to the Barnes----

Per their own words, they "Went to see Alan, and we did a little bit of the tech. Then we realized we are done, done--forever. However the big thing for us is we wouldn't have left if we couldn't have done some tech. And once out---we were now free to read, look, listen and learn and thus totally changed our minds". So see? It was that bridge OUT I was speaking about.

Nope: I never met Hubbard. My X-Husband and his parents did in the 50's.

Lots of love to you, and thank you for your support over the years!

Tory/Magoo :alien:



Thank you for that explanation Tory, I have seen the video with Greg and Debra Barnes, can't say I understood why they still needed to follow the 'tech', I guess it's a need to cling on to something. I do understand that devoting so much of your life to something that you believed in, only to find out it was all based on a lie is a very hard thing to let go of. Believe me, I really do.

The same with Allen and Knowledgism or whatever he called it, he couldn't let go.The same way Terril Park can't let go, the same way many Freezoners/indies whatever can not let go. I am not without compassion for these people whom spent so much of their life following something that they thought was doing good for the world.Unfortunately there are so many oldtimers names I know from the original sea org days and there are so many of them still following some kind of extended scientology. Making money out of peoples vulnerabilities. How can that be right? Then you have jerks like Terril Park,and he's not the only one, who not only writes stupid success stories, but tries to draw in young teenage impressionable people into his stupid quackery.Whether he succeeds or not is besides the point.The point is he says one thing, but does another, just like LRH.

He even declared me an enemy, via e-mail, whilst expressing he wanted to be friends. How can you be friends with someone who does everything you oppose?

I guess we'll find out in Mark Bunker's film.

You'll always have my support and love for I know only too well the battle you have fought.
Lots of Love,
Sharone

_________________
Look at our brokenness.
We know that in all Creation
Only the human family
Has strayed from the sacred way.

Teach us love,compassion,honour
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other.(part of an Ojibway prayer)


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Posts: 11033
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Quote:
You'll always have my support and love for I know only too well the battle you have fought.
Lots of Love,
Sharone


Thank you SO much! You have *no* idea how much support from you (and many others, too) means to me.
When you have an organization like $cientology working to undermine you at
every turn, there is nothing quite so refreshing as another getting what you're trying to do,
and why. To those who will try to say that is "wrong" or bad (my even being happy that
you support me just here on OCMB) I say: Find the right target: I am not it.

My love to you :love5:

Tory/Magoo
http://www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44


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 Post subject: Re: What can Marty do about it?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:55 am 
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BTs2Free wrote:
Quote:
"What is needed from Marty is the truth."


Caroline, thank you for posting this thread and linking all of the history and information that goes along with it.

I don't post much anymore and have been completely immersed in a family matter the last 2 years being a full-time caregiver for my Grandmother who has Parkinson's Syndrome. It takes everything I have (mentally and physically) these days. But this thread really piqued my interest and something sparked.

The real question is WHY won't Marty tell the truth? (and that includes Rinder).

Rinder claimed that he had enough information already to put David Miscavige behind bars. What are he and/or Marty waiting for? The second coming? And I'm not talking about Christ.

I think Marty's treatment and attitude towards Gerry and this goes towards other exes who don't buy into the "it's all DM" and not LRH boat, is very telling and a major concern for me and many other people.

We've been talking about DM and calling him names for years, WAY before M&M showed up.

A lot of the things that Marty and Mike are "exposing" about Int and DM have already been discussed, and in some cases years before ever being mentioned on Marty's blog. Too bad BFG and I didn't start our own blog. Hind site is 20/20 though.

Marty is being credited with getting a lot of people to leave the CoS. I would put it another way though. People are and have been leaving the CoS in floods for years without Marty and his blog. David Miscavige himself has gotten more people to leave the CoS than any of us have really. The difference between you and I and Marty is that he's been quite the opportunist in being able to "handle and salvage" those people who are currently jumping ship and offering them more Scientology to keep them in the fold while brilliantly saying that it wasn't LRH or Scientology, but one man, DM who ruined the whole game.

I am always for freedom of belief and freedom of speech. But, I am against destructive or harmful practices towards other people. People who don't believe that Scientology is a harmful practice need to think again and do more research on the subject itself. The information is totally available if one looks.

On the Scientology Org Board there is a division called Division 6C (Field Control Division) - Div 6 as a whole being the Public Division. The valuable final product of the Field Control Division is a thriving and controlled field of active Scientologists. The use of the word "controlled" is pretty key because that's what Hubbard himself intended with the use of Scientology technique - top that with the overall purpose of making money, and making more money (which is policy numero uno). DM has been trying to control the members of Scientology and it's field just as LRH intended. DM however doesn't have the charm and charisma that Hubbard had, and is from Philly, so there you go.

Marty and the "Indy" crowd fit right there on Scientology's (CoS's) Org Board under Division 6C whether they like it or not. Going all the way back to the 60's, Sea Org Missions have been fired to "clean up a muddy field." These are missions sent out to get people "cleaned up," get their ARC Breaks with Hubbard and Scientology resolved and back on the Bridge to Total Freedom as "active" Scientologists - CONTROLLED Scientologists. In this case though, it doesn't matter if these people are active CoS Scientologists or not, but from my observation, to prevent real litigation and prosecution towards David Miscavige and other Senior Execs (including "EX") that could be roped into that court room and possibly put behind bars. For example, we KNOW about Lisa McPherson and Marty's involvement with having key documents destroyed to protect the Church. But what else do we not know that should be in the court room - the whole truth and nothing but, so help you God?

Think about this, a lot of the people who are leaving and joining up with Marty are people who held very high posts at the Int Base and worked closely with David Miscavige for years. Between all of them there must be hundreds of years of experience of having worked right next to the man, and yet there's no Class Action or Court case? Yet, what we are getting is a bunch of boo hiss towards Miscavige and how he alone fucked it all up. You want the truth, and we all want the truth, but missing is Marty's truth about LRH and the fact that he's attempting to salvage Scientology and the image of L. Ron Hubbard. We're still hearing the same OSA and Marketing PR lines and Ron Mag issues from a camp that's supposedly all about truth.

I know Gerry was in the Sea Org and worked in some very sensitive areas. I'm sure what I've written above is ringing some bells.

Another thing, when I blew from the Int base 11 years ago, I was STILL on the fence about the whole thing. In other words, my own feeling was that maybe Hubbard and the Tech was all good but it was just management and the Sea Org that was all wrong. Luckily for me, there was no Marty or INDY scene for me to get sucked into. I discovered ARS and THIS website and that's all I needed to find out the real truth about L. Ron Hubbard and what he was all about. The AFFIRMATIONS were KEY in getting me to wake up immediately and never look back. Having been a hardcore, card carrying, 23 years long Scientologist, raised in it from childhood - 10 of those years being a seasoned SO member at the Int base and having worked on staff prior to that to almost immediately finding the truth and leaving ALL of it behind in a matter of a couple months is what happened for me. No way stops. No R and R before realizing it's all bunk. It was almost instantaneous with finding out about Hubbard and his actual history.

Marty and Mike OTOH are trying to rewrite that history and continue the whitewash, which has already been a long-time-going GO/OSA op from the get go.

Caroline and Gerry, I wish you the best of luck in getting Marty to change his attitude and help you with providing the truth, but fact of the matter is that you are both an enemy of LRH, Marty's best friend. And that's why he won't help you and never will until he wakes the fuck up from dreamland.

Cheers,
John


Thanks John. It means a lot to Gerry and me, and ultimately to the whole SP class.

Thanks too for taking care of your grandmother. We’ll probably all need someone to take care of us like that some day.

I believe that Marty and Mike won’t tell the truth because the truth would set a lot of people free, and it serves their purposes to keep people trapped. Gerry said your post was thought-provoking for him and he’ll respond separately.

You asked what in addition to the truth of Lisa McPherson should be in a court room, and the biggest, most monstrous case that should be in a court room is Scientology v. Armstrong. This includes, of course, Scientology v. persons acting in concert with Gerry, like me. That’s the case that Marty and Mike could most help if they told the truth. And that’s why they don’t do it.

I think Marty’s awake and Mike’s awake enough, and they aren’t exactly in dreamland. They’ve been too cynical for too long. I think it’s a matter of them in their awake state simply growing a backbone. People with backbones tell the truth.

The task appears to be then getting them to see that backbonelessness is fail and that having a backbone is a good thing, even though they’d have to use it to have it. Maybe they have to wake up to the fact that they’re cowards.

In any case I believe it will be clear when or if Marty or Mike wake up and grow a backbone, and they haven’t.

I was struck by this insight:

BTs2Free wrote:
On the Scientology Org Board there is a division called Division 6C (Field Control Division) - Div 6 as a whole being the Public Division. The valuable final product of the Field Control Division is a thriving and controlled field of active Scientologists. The use of the word "controlled" is pretty key because that's what Hubbard himself intended with the use of Scientology technique - top that with the overall purpose of making money, and making more money (which is policy numero uno). DM has been trying to control the members of Scientology and it's field just as LRH intended. DM however doesn't have the charm and charisma that Hubbard had, and is from Philly, so there you go.

Marty and the "Indy" crowd fit right there on Scientology's (CoS's) Org Board under Division 6C whether they like it or not.


This relationship, and the relationship that DM and Scientology have adopted regarding everyone on this planet actually, makes Scientology a relevant issue for us all, and one of legitimate concern.

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


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