One opened, more to come!
It is currently Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:41 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Discussion about indies, the tech, and SPs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:09 pm
Posts: 5159
Location: Bondi Beach
J. Swift wrote:
I still don't see any evidence of the Indies practicing the SP Doctrine.


Gee, you sound like a scientologist. Evidence of absence doesn't always equate to absence of evidence.

Sure sounds like your saying in wogonese what is true for you is true for you as you observed it
Quote:
What I do see is Caroline using sockpuppets on this thread.



LOL. Just leik you saw OSA on martyrs blog and started flailing your arms wildly, only to then be told by me that it was me and not OSA OSA OSA.


Martyr shows exactly what it is that makes Scientology itself the problem and not the church.
WTG martyr and WTG his arse-kissing sycophants.

_________________
"If anyone talks about a "road to Freedom" he is talking about a linear line. This, then, must have boundaries. If there are boundaries there is no freedom." - Dianetics 55


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
Caroline wrote:
Are any of these abuses not justified by the application of standard L. Ron Hubbard's tech?

Of course individuals use parts of scientology to justify abuse. I've seen it with my own eyes.

This is true of any ideologically driven group (including your own group), that ideas justify actions. Christians have used parts of the bible to justify war, genocide, beating children, slavery, etc. Look at what some Muslims use the Quran to justify. Should we now force all Christians to repudiate the guilty Biblical passages and strike them from the Bible? Or should we mandate that: Christians may no longer use any part of the Bible as an excuse or justification for committing crimes or abusing others (?).

Regarding scientology: which approach do you think would more effectively discourage abuse?

Caroline and Gerry: your battle against Indies (imo) = Ideology v. Ideology:

Jay Weinstein 3rd Edition Social Change wrote:
An ideology is a distorted account that serves the interests of some group for itself. It distorts not by telling untruths but rather through its focus on only the facts that support its case.

As it is the intellectual’s job, in general, to interpret events for an audience, in a movement they lead the way in defining situations as real.

A movement leader as an ideologue performs the definitive task of “fanning the flames of discontent”.

The mod named this thread "Discussion of..." and I understand why you took "discussion" out of the title: because you never actually discuss anything. What you do is you promote your own ideology (per the description above). What I see are attempts to recruit and gain support for a movement, Gerry and Caroline's movement that is based on your ideology and separate from critics, OG, Anons, etc.. I have observed your actions (as clues to the objectives of your movement) to be something along these lines:

1. Gain support from the general public for Gerry’s position regarding his extensive legal history and case(s). Anyone not "in concert” with Gerry receives very specific treatment usually including one or more of the following: ignored, accused of further victimizing you and Gerry, accused of being a liar, implied they are OSA, or simply put down, etc.

2. Through that support, get the public to help you put pressure on Marty to participate in legal maneuvers to try to reverse legal rulings in Gerry’s case. This pressure includes a campaign to profile Marty as an abuser today, but based on his actions from the past.

3. Create support for the Gerry/Caroline ideological perspective that (parts of) scientology itself are the cause of much or all of the abuses that occur at Int Base and elsewhere in scientology. This position requires that individuals (indies, exes, critics) “admit” that scientology ideology is the true cause (the why) and renounce the sections that are mandated to be renounced by Gerry and Caroline’s movement. Example:
Caroline wrote:
You have failed to demonstrate that the Indies have repudiated the SP doctrine. You have failed to produce even one Scientologist, either Indie or Innie, who has repudiated that doctrine.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42011

This ^ is your response to someone for failing to be "in concert" with Gerry.

4. The flavor of your movement is a vision of the future where the abuses in scientology will only be stopped or prevented if those who forward scientology as a helpful practice renounce and delete an entire section of the canon that is deemed ideologically corrupt (from Gerry and Caroline’s perspective). Somehow this ideological position supports Gerry's legal goals, but I'm not sure how exactly.

Because Gerry and Caroline’s movement is (imo) ideological in nature, I don’t see it as much different from Marty’s movement. It is a self-serving movement that claims to be for the good of everyone. That is why I call your ongoing battle: Ideology v. Ideology.

On the other hand, I have seen the majority of critics, exes and OG support the idea that the various factions of the critics' movement work together to end the very real abuses of scientology. For example:

Graham Berry wrote:
IMHO we all need to seek strength in numbers and work together towards our common goal of eliminating OSA and dismantling the “church” in its present form.


Because the Gerry/Caroline movement is ideologically at odds with this consensus and what the different groups have in common, I reiterate:
Weinstein (2010) wrote:
A movement leader as an ideologue performs the definitive task of “fanning the flames of discontent”.

As it is the intellectual’s job, in general, to interpret events for an audience, in a movement they lead the way in defining situations as real.

Supporting Indies is ideologically at odds with the Gerry/Caroline movement. It is seen as an enemy activity. Therefore perpetrators must be squashed, guilty persons labelled "sympathizer", "dupe", "apologist", "scientologist", "sycophant", "liar", etc., by you and persons you have convinced to join your movement.

There's no crime in starting your own ideological movement. What I take issue with is pretending to be something you are not, such as "for the public good". Your movement goals have little to do with my personal goal for the larger critics movement, which is more along the lines of what Graham Berry (see above quote) and many others have said/written. It's not that I don't support you and Gerry as victims of scientology same as I support Indies as victims of scientology, but I can't join or support your ideological movement because I am not "in concert" with Gerry, which to me equals not "marching in lock step" with Gerry thus making me ineligible to join your movement anyway even if I wanted to.

In addition to the above I am not "in concert" with Gerry because I was unable to get some very important questions answered about several of his (unsubstantiated) claims regarding his legal cases. I was dismissed in much the same way Marty dismisses people from his blog who ask questions he cannot or will not answer. I did not buy the excuse that you'll be fined $10,000 for every question of mine which you answer. I thought that was hilarious. It was so funny, readers here actually thought you were playing a game!

Regarding the title of this thread, anyone claiming to know the "source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world", or the source and causes of any "abuses around the world", I say is a charlatan same as LRon, because that is exactly what he claimed to know!


What makes someone abuse, do evil, harm others, is not yet fully known. Caroline, apparently, according to you, you yourself abused people when you worked for OSA. In your point of view, was it scientology ideology (Fair game, SP Doctrine) that made you, or was the cause of you committing those acts?

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Posts: 10204
Location: Los Feliz, California
Dorothy, your post is very lucid, powerful, and spot on.

What we have in the Armstrong Agenda is an ideology that, while laudably exposing Scientology's lies, simultaneously perpetuates the lie that Gerry is somehow a victim for having signed a gag agreement for which Scientology paid him $800,000. Gerry is thus in the odd position of perpetuating his big lie in order to expose Scientology's bigger lies.


/////

_________________
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com


Last edited by J. Swift on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:29 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Canada
Dorothy wrote:
In addition to the above I am not "in concert" with Gerry because I was unable to get some very important questions answered about several of his (unsubstantiated) claims regarding his legal cases. I was dismissed in much the same way Marty dismisses people from his blog who ask questions he cannot or will not answer. I did not buy the excuse that you'll be fined $10,000 for every question of mine which you answer. I thought that was hilarious. It was so funny, readers here actually thought you were playing a game!


Your reaction is not unusual. However, Scientology calculates their "liquidated damages" at $50,000 per utterance, per recipient, not $10,000 as you say. Scientology's rep Lynn Farny did the math in depo in Armstrong 4:

Deposition of Lynn Farny of 11 July 1994 wrote:
MR. WALTON: I would like to find out which 50,000-dollar liquidated claims go with which alleged breaches.

THE WITNESS: That's easily set up. If I can be of help to you, beginning on page 29 it states which Causes of Action we are seeking liquidated damages for, which Causes of Action we're seeking some other form of relief for. They are pretty succinctly set out here if you understand the difference in the types of aid and assistance to litigants, and there's disclosure of information. The liquidated damages comes from disclosure of information. So where you see a paragraph that alleges disclosure of information, that is going to translate over to page 29 and over into a liquidated damages claim. It's really simple.

MR. WALTON: Q. Bear with me for one more Cause

105

of Action and maybe I'll become more clear, and if I don't then certainly I'll try another tact.

MR. MOXON: I'm certainly not trying to turn off any questions. At the same time, your reading something in the Complaint is unnecessary.

MR. WALTON: Q. Could you look at the Fourteenth Cause of Action, and it starts on page 20 and it describes a letter.

A. Yes.

Q. The sending of this letter Scientology has alleged entitles it to $950,000 in liquidated damages.

Can you explain that to me?

A. Yes, I can. The letter which is attached to the Complaint as an Exhibit E is nine pages long and provides an extensive amount of information. Now each of the individuals designated in paragraph 87 received a copy of this letter, so it's the disclosure of information to those individuals at $50,000 a pop which totals 950,000.

Q. Do you know if that is attached to this Complaint?

A. It's Exhibit E.

Q. This is a letter dated December 22nd, 1992 addressed to David Miscavige care of Laurie Bartilson, addressed to David Miscavige and all other individuals who participate in the control of Scientology in care of

106

Laurie Bartilson. Is that the letter?

A. Yes. Essentially, yes, that is the letter.

Q. I see there's an extensive cc list.

A. So do I.

Q. Is adding up those names and multiplying by 50,000, is that how Scientology got to 950,000?

MR. MOXON: Objection, asked and answered.

Retrieved on 9 November 2011 from http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a4/2552.php.


Also see YouTube: Gerry Armstrong, Berlin 17. Sept. 2011
(Many thanks to DxxAnonymous.)

Thomas Gandow wrote:
Berlin, 17. Sept. 2011
Gerry Armstrong
Thomas Gandow, Dialog Zentrum Berlin
Anonymous



Thomas Gandow: " I welcome you on behalf of the Dialog-Zentrum Berlin. Currently Gerry Armstrong is our guest and we've been working with him for a very long time. Among other things many years ago we co-founded the European-American Citizen's Committee for Freedom of Religion in the United States of America. The committee´s goal is to make sure that a person may leave an organization such as Scientology without being persecuted, that he may speak freely about it, that files which have been created on him won't be used in order to blackmail him and to hinder him from exercising his right to freedom of speech and similar things.

We have created this event specifically for anonymous and the internet community as there are recent discussions about how to confront Scientology. The Dialog-Zentrum Berlin's view in this debate is that the fundamental point in the confrontation, to hit the bull's eye so to speak, is to deal with the teachings of an organization such as Scientology. Abuses exist everywhere, but when you confront the teachings, then you truly hit the bull's eye. And because of that we also intent to maintain that view and have invited Gerry to inform, mostly, about his history with Scientology. Especially after in the past days there were particularly malicious attacks on the internet against Gerry, which have been put on the internet by Marty Rathbun and his adherents. For example it was very maliciously claimed that it had been Gerry's fault that Bob Minton has been ruined as Gerry had caused Minton to supply him with a computer. I know from my friend Bob Minton that he offered and presented a computer to Gerry on his own accord, and that he supported him on his own accord, because he wanted to work "in concert" with Gerry. Which is precisely one of the phrases in the suppressive court judgements against Gerry, that persons, who work "in concert" with him, may be threatened and persecuted by Scientology based on these judgements just like Gerry Armstrong himself. The Dialog-Zentrum Berlin is proud to work "in concert" with Gerry and we're happy that he's now going to give his statement to us and that he´s also going to answer all possible questions after that. Thank you for coming. "

_________________
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
Simply expecting me to watch a two hour promo piece for the Gerry/Caroline movement is not a helpful response nor an acceptable contribution to a discussion. Perhaps you could supply me with excerpts that are relevant to the "discussion" thread, or a transcript that I can skim for relevance... I won't hold my breath.

Back on topic: "Source and causes of scientology abuse around the world".

Caroline wrote:
Since leaving Scientology in 1999, I've spent a lot of time thinking about my training and auditing experiences, and researching the abuses that were perpetrated against me, and that I perpetrated, by standardly applying Hubbard's ethics tech, auditing tech and admin tech. I completely reject Hubbard's tech and I do what I can to warn people about it.

I’m glad to hear you are no longer abusing people. If rejecting Hubbard’s tech is what it took to get you to stop abusing people, I suppose that is still a good thing. What concerns me is that you have taken no personal responsibility for your actions. Honestly I’d be suspicious of you for that. Advocating that you take at least some or part of the responsibility does not come from scientology doctrine. It comes from a perspective that as a human being, you should have enough empathy to avoid hurting others, even if you’re indoctrinated to harm others. This is not just my view, it is the view of the International Criminal Court as well when it deals with crimes against humanity, globally.

In 2002 the ICC was formed and it adopted findings in part from the Nuremberg Tribunals that "redefined the force of norms in groups and organizations", for humanity in general. This redefinition covers three main issues:

1. “Members of organizations are responsible for knowing what formal ends are being served by their acts… Goal displacement (excessive focus on the rules) can no longer be used as a moral or legal defense of the ultimate outcomes of one’s acts.”

2.”Members of organizations who are required to act in functionally rational ways to achieve formally irrational ends have the legal right and the moral duty to disobey orders.”

3. “Members of organizations, and members of societies in which the organizations operate, are responsible for knowing what the ultimate goals are and for amending them if they are irrational… organizations are subject to the will of the people, not the other way around.”

(Paraphrased from Social Change by Jay Weinstein, 2010)

Translation: “I was ordered, brainwashed, mind-controlled” or otherwise indoctrinated or coerced into committing immoral acts is no longer acceptable as an excuse. It was not acceptable for Adolf Eichmann at the Nuremberg trials and it will not be acceptable when David Miscavige or any scientologist who is placed in front of a Jury for violations of human rights, abuse, human trafficking, etc. It does not matter (at least to the ICC) that 65% of humans will inflict pain upon another human simply because they are ordered to do so (see Stanford Prison Experiment).

I have little interest in hearing Marty Rathbun or any other Indie announce that he repudiates SP Doctrine because it is what convinced him and drove him to be a bully, a criminal and to abuse people. I would trust him a whole lot more if he confronted the inherent flaw within himself, within every human being, to potentially fail to show empathy towards the suffering of another human being, and to fail to act upon that empathy.

Whether the tech "works" or not is another subject. All the FPRD in the world is no guarantee that a person will do the right thing in any situation. But to say that "the tech" is the source and cause of the abuse is the same as selling snake oil to me.

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
ditto post

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 487
Location: All over the place
I am in concert with Caroline and Gerry and I'll tell you for why. I do not condone the fact that Gerry took $800,000 to keep quiet about Scientology. No one should keep quiet about the abuse that was administered under the name of L. Ron Hubbard and there was plenty of it, long before indies, freezoners were ever even heard of.

However I can understand why he took the money and also why his conscience got the better of him.

When I left the sea org in 1969, at the age of 12 years old, I possessed one medium sized suitcase, my whole life thus so far and an e-meter which I had been persuaded I needed and in order to maintain the impression , I was coming back, I indeed had to buy it. I didn't even have enough money to pay the full fare to the taxi driver from the airport to my new home. And, I was lucky, to have some kind of a home to go to, even if it was a scientologist one. Many did not.

Whilst we are on the whole Indie/freezone thing, there are videos of Independent Mike Rinder, whilst still supposedly totally embroiled in Scientology creating a set up of Gerald Armstrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gm7ATqW4p0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bY_ZEXMai4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmUOIc3Om0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLpAMRvufIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcjjZbQRTSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcjjZbQRTSU

These videos are difficult watching, as they are old and difficult to keep abreast of, however, I recommend if you are interested in this, then perseverance is the order of the day.

My question at this point has to be 'WHY did Scientology feel the need to give Gerry Armstrong $800,000 in the first place?' FOR SILENCE!

I never got offered anything, I was a 12 year old kid and was threatened with a mental institution and because of all the shit I endured aboard the Apollo, I believed that. I'd just gotten myself out of one mental institution, did I really want to go to another one?As it happens, I did, sort of. But, on reflection, it was far better than Hubbard's floating mental institution.

Gerald Armstrong was married to my best friend's sister, my best friend, her sister and brother spent decades in this mentally, manipulated institution. I'm sorry, but we are talking people's lives here and how many more lives have to be ruined because you choose to be SILENT? I know you are reading, I can't do this on my own. I'm trying, but I need backup!

Remember, the Royal Family?

I am starting to wonder, just how many people were paid to keep SILENT! And, how much? Let's all keep silent, we will talk about the abuse of David Miscavige, but, LRH, pfttt - too much money involved?How much money was paid to keep this charade going on?Billion year contract, or billions of $ made to live a life of prosperity, flourish and prosper. Hope you can sleep at night!

I can, because I work god damned hard to earn my money, it's hard but it's honest. How hard is it to let mere mortals suffer, because to tell the truth means opening up an entire lifetime of perpetuated lies?It is not your fault, I know this, but, it will be if you don't speak out.

How do you think I feel, having kept silent for 38 years?

_________________
Look at our brokenness.
We know that in all Creation
Only the human family
Has strayed from the sacred way.

Teach us love,compassion,honour
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other.(part of an Ojibway prayer)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
tamasin-sp:

I would love nothing more than to see the people who committed the crimes and abuse against you as a child- go to trial and answer for their actions. That includes LRon if he were alive.

In that perfect world though, if it were to happen, and if I were sitting on the Jury, I dk if I could accept an excuse such as the one Caroline gives, that "the tech" made them do it. What would be LRon's excuse? What if he claimed "in my black magic days, someone put a spell on me and made me do all those crazy things". As a victim, would that make you happy?

I was in scientology too, for 20+ years. I admit to having been indoctrinated, mind-controlled, etc. So I understand what you're talking about. Accepting the hush money, such as the 800K Gerry accepted, is nothing more than a continuation of the abuse. To then take no responsibility for it or otherwise failing to accept the truth of one's actions, is unacceptable in my opinion.

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Posts: 10204
Location: Los Feliz, California
This is a straightforward contract into which Mr. Armstrong entered. The agreement calls for liquidated damages of $50,000 for each breach of contract:

Quote:
D. Plaintiff agrees never to create or publish or attempt to publish, and/or assist another to create for publication by means of magazine, article, book or other

-6-

[CT 122]

similar form, any writing or to broadcast or to assist another to create, write, film or video tape or audio tape any show, program or movie, or to grant interviews or discuss with others, concerning their experiences with the Church of Scientology, or concerning their personal or indirectly acquired knowledge or information concerning the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard or any of the organizations, individuals and entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. Plaintiff further agrees that he will maintain strict confidentiality and silence with respect to his experiences with the Church of Scientology and any knowledge or information he may have concerning the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, or any of the organizations, individuals and entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. Plaintiff expressly understands that the non-disclosure provisions of this subparagraph shall apply, inter alia, but not be limited, to the contents or substance of his complaint on file in the action referred to in Paragraph 1 hereinabove or any documents as defined in Appendix "A" to this Agreement, including but not limited to any tapes, films, photographs, recastings, variations or copies of any such materials which concern or relate to the religion of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, or any of the organizations, individuals, or entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. The attorneys for Plaintiff, subject to the ethical limitations restraining them as promulgated by the state or federal regulatory associations or agencies, agree not to disclose any of the terms and conditions of the settlement negotiations, amount of the

-7-

[CT 123]
settlement, or statements made by either party during settlement conferences. Plaintiff agrees that if the terms of this paragraph are breached by him, that CSI and the other Releasees would be entitled to liquidated damages in the amount of $50,000 for each such breach. All monies received to induce or in payment for a breach of this Agreement, or any part thereof, shall be held in a constructive trust pending the outcome of any litigation over said breach. The amount of liquidated damages herein is an estimate of the damages that each party would suffer in the event this Agreement is breached. The reasonableness of the amount of such damages, are hereto acknowledged by Plaintiff.

ref: http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/625.php

/////

_________________
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 487
Location: All over the place
Dorothy wrote:
tamasin-sp:

I would love nothing more than to see the people who committed the crimes and abuse against you as a child- go to trial and answer for their actions. That includes LRon if he were alive.

In that perfect world though, if it were to happen, and if I were sitting on the Jury, I dk if I could accept an excuse such as the one Caroline gives, that "the tech" made them do it. What would be LRon's excuse? What if he claimed "in my black magic days, someone put a spell on me and made me do all those crazy things". As a victim, would that make you happy?

I was in scientology too, for 20+ years. I admit to having been indoctrinated, mind-controlled, etc. So I understand what you're talking about. Accepting the hush money, such as the 800K Gerry accepted, is nothing more than a continuation of the abuse. To then take no responsibility for it or otherwise failing to accept the truth of one's actions, is unacceptable in my opinion.


In my heart of hearts I know that what happened to me as a child is unforgivable, in the name of a supposed religion, which I might add it never was in my day.

I struggle continually with thoughts about my half sister and her children, whom I gather are all in the sea org of which I was once a member of.

I listen and watch all the latest goings on in this organization and am continually in despair because people like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder get continual recognition as being the forefront in this alms against abuse in Scientology.They perpetuated the abuse for years. Years, and Years.And, yet suddenly they are the new kids on the block.

And, we all have to believe them.

What utter bollachs!

Having seen Sponges thread onhttp://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=41930 I am of the opinion that this is all a waste of time.

I wish it wasn't, but it is.

Scientology, is shit, from the bowels of the ship and up and onto the OT levels and whilst you are up there on Target 2, LRH, I sincerely hope every single body thetan attaches itself to you for the next billion years.

There is no justice in this world, because the Scientologists have taken it over.

_________________
Look at our brokenness.
We know that in all Creation
Only the human family
Has strayed from the sacred way.

Teach us love,compassion,honour
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other.(part of an Ojibway prayer)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
tamasin-sp wrote:
There is no justice in this world, because the Scientologists have taken it over.

My dear lady, did you notice that those papers you linked to (Sponge's post) are from 1998? 14 years ago? Scientology has shrunk to less than half it's size since then. I'm one of a group of people who left since then. Scientology has virtually no influence in the world. It is so tiny, compared to other groups, there are so few scientologists, that it is scientology that hardly matters.

But there are people still at Int Base and other sea org outposts that have RPFs and places where sea org members can still be held against their will, as well as other abuses that need more exposure. So don't despair over this. It's not worth it. Your story is important, so I hope you will keep talking about it and encourage others to do the same. And I would also encourage you to seek Justice, not revenge. Revenge was LRon's game.

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
deleted ditto post

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:17 am
Posts: 840
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
J. Swift wrote:
This is a straightforward contract into which Mr. Armstrong entered. The agreement calls for liquidated damages of $50,000 for each breach of contract:

Quote:
D. Plaintiff agrees never to create or publish or attempt to publish, and/or assist another to create for publication by means of magazine, article, book or other

-6-

[CT 122]

similar form, any writing or to broadcast or to assist another to create, write, film or video tape or audio tape any show, program or movie, or to grant interviews or discuss with others, concerning their experiences with the Church of Scientology, or concerning their personal or indirectly acquired knowledge or information concerning the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard or any of the organizations, individuals and entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. Plaintiff further agrees that he will maintain strict confidentiality and silence with respect to his experiences with the Church of Scientology and any knowledge or information he may have concerning the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, or any of the organizations, individuals and entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. Plaintiff expressly understands that the non-disclosure provisions of this subparagraph shall apply, inter alia, but not be limited, to the contents or substance of his complaint on file in the action referred to in Paragraph 1 hereinabove or any documents as defined in Appendix "A" to this Agreement, including but not limited to any tapes, films, photographs, recastings, variations or copies of any such materials which concern or relate to the religion of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, or any of the organizations, individuals, or entities listed in Paragraph 1 above. The attorneys for Plaintiff, subject to the ethical limitations restraining them as promulgated by the state or federal regulatory associations or agencies, agree not to disclose any of the terms and conditions of the settlement negotiations, amount of the

-7-

[CT 123]
settlement, or statements made by either party during settlement conferences. Plaintiff agrees that if the terms of this paragraph are breached by him, that CSI and the other Releasees would be entitled to liquidated damages in the amount of $50,000 for each such breach. All monies received to induce or in payment for a breach of this Agreement, or any part thereof, shall be held in a constructive trust pending the outcome of any litigation over said breach. The amount of liquidated damages herein is an estimate of the damages that each party would suffer in the event this Agreement is breached. The reasonableness of the amount of such damages, are hereto acknowledged by Plaintiff.

ref: http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/625.php

/////


Soderqvist1: Marty Rathbun claim that Gerry is responsible for his own victim hood!
Marty even claim that Gerry sold out to the enemy, a thing Marty himself will never do because he is not a victim or so he brags! But the thing is that according to Gerry’s talk at Berlin 1:38:56 Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder Fair Gamed him to sign this contract under duress so Marty and Mike is legally responsible for Gerry’s victim hood and want these to step forward and tell the court about their crime so Gerry can be free from his victim hood!
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... ember-2011

_________________
A simple explanation with few explanation grounds is to prefer, except when you need to hide your flaws! - Peter Soderqvist


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:17 am
Posts: 840
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Dorothy wrote:
Simply expecting me to watch a two hour promo piece for the Gerry/Caroline movement is not a helpful response nor an acceptable contribution to a discussion. Perhaps you could supply me with excerpts that are relevant to the "discussion" thread, or a transcript that I can skim for relevance... I won't hold my breath.

Back on topic: "Source and causes of scientology abuse around the world".

Caroline wrote:
Since leaving Scientology in 1999, I've spent a lot of time thinking about my training and auditing experiences, and researching the abuses that were perpetrated against me, and that I perpetrated, by standardly applying Hubbard's ethics tech, auditing tech and admin tech. I completely reject Hubbard's tech and I do what I can to warn people about it.

I’m glad to hear you are no longer abusing people. If rejecting Hubbard’s tech is what it took to get you to stop abusing people, I suppose that is still a good thing. What concerns me is that you have taken no personal responsibility for your actions. Honestly I’d be suspicious of you for that. Advocating that you take at least some or part of the responsibility does not come from scientology doctrine. It comes from a perspective that as a human being, you should have enough empathy to avoid hurting others, even if you’re indoctrinated to harm others. This is not just my view, it is the view of the International Criminal Court as well when it deals with crimes against humanity, globally.

In 2002 the ICC was formed and it adopted findings in part from the Nuremberg Tribunals that "redefined the force of norms in groups and organizations", for humanity in general. This redefinition covers three main issues:

1. “Members of organizations are responsible for knowing what formal ends are being served by their acts… Goal displacement (excessive focus on the rules) can no longer be used as a moral or legal defense of the ultimate outcomes of one’s acts.”

2.”Members of organizations who are required to act in functionally rational ways to achieve formally irrational ends have the legal right and the moral duty to disobey orders.”

3. “Members of organizations, and members of societies in which the organizations operate, are responsible for knowing what the ultimate goals are and for amending them if they are irrational… organizations are subject to the will of the people, not the other way around.”

(Paraphrased from Social Change by Jay Weinstein, 2010)

Translation: “I was ordered, brainwashed, mind-controlled” or otherwise indoctrinated or coerced into committing immoral acts is no longer acceptable as an excuse. It was not acceptable for Adolf Eichmann at the Nuremberg trials and it will not be acceptable when David Miscavige or any scientologist who is placed in front of a Jury for violations of human rights, abuse, human trafficking, etc. It does not matter (at least to the ICC) that 65% of humans will inflict pain upon another human simply because they are ordered to do so (see Stanford Prison Experiment).

I have little interest in hearing Marty Rathbun or any other Indie announce that he repudiates SP Doctrine because it is what convinced him and drove him to be a bully, a criminal and to abuse people. I would trust him a whole lot more if he confronted the inherent flaw within himself, within every human being, to potentially fail to show empathy towards the suffering of another human being, and to fail to act upon that empathy.

Whether the tech "works" or not is another subject. All the FPRD in the world is no guarantee that a person will do the right thing in any situation. But to say that "the tech" is the source and cause of the abuse is the same as selling snake oil to me.


Soderqvist1: this also a piece of cake!
The offender is always responsible for his crime never the victim!
And it doesn’t matter if the Nazi claim that he only obeyed order, or he was brainwashed to do the act, because of his Age of Majority he is always responsible for what law he broke! But I think that nobody will claim that the Nazism is innocent to the Holocaust but on the other hand it is not possible to prosecute a ideology for the simple reason that it is not a juridical person, but it is quite possible to prosecute the authors for the plotting and instigating crimes against humanity as they did at the Nuremberg Trials. With the same way of reasoning it is possible hold L. Ron Hubbard responsible for his act if Caroline Letkeman or Marty Rathbun was instigated by Hubbard to do their crimes. Nazism defeated democracy in Germany because Hitler rose to power by selection and stayed at power because of his coup, and therefore Nazism is outlawed in Germany since every Expression of it is forbidden in order to prevent this coup to ever happen again, and same it is possible in principle to do with Scientology!
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... fair-game/

_________________
A simple explanation with few explanation grounds is to prefer, except when you need to hide your flaws! - Peter Soderqvist


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm
Posts: 1950
Location: Kansas
Dear Caroline, and Gerry:

I watched Gerry’s 2 hour video, I transcribed some parts that apply directly to this topic (source and causes of abuse in scientology), and i slept on this.

Quote:
Hubbard was a psychopath, and the whole process of scientology I believe installs in a person a psychopathic condition in which they don’t have any guilt, they lie with relative impunity, they feel totally good about lying, they don’t care for their fellow human beings, they have no remorse. I believe it is in most cases a temporary condition, when they leave, they become decent again… Psychopathic conditions can be installed in a group, it becomes a mob think. (gives examples of Nazi Germany and gangs)

The only way to get rid of the condition is to leave scientology; those people (Indies) have not left scientology. I believe that there are a lot of attractions to the psychopathic condition; you don’t have a conscience, so you can do things without any concern. They don’t care, there are no restraints.

-Gerry Armstrong, transcribed by Dorothy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6XCXPx9yoQ


After watching Gerry tell his story, seeing him break down and cry, I can understand why and how Gerry would come to such conclusions about the entire subject of scientology. It is his experience, and he is being true to that experience. I feel very bad for Gerry and what he’s been through. I agree he had one or more psychopathic hounds and goons paid to terrorize him, on his tail who were following orders from or paid by the “group”. But let me clarify that. In scientology there are many groups within groups. When I say group, I do not mean the larger group of “scientologists”. I mean the tiny Gestapo-like group (Guardian’s Office, OSA) within the larger Jesuit-style organization called sea org, within the larger, overall group of scientology members. 99.9% of scientologists don’t even know who Gerry is, and have never acted psychotically as Gerry describes.

This is a “true for you” situation, but not in a scientology sense, in a critical thinking sense. The inductive reasoning, empirical generalization that Gerry uses: "drawing a conclusion about a target population based on observing a sample population", is what Gerry observed for himself. Gerry makes other such leaps when he insists that Indies are (today) doing the same Loyalist Op that was done to him in 1981. Also when he says that (paraphrased) because Rex Fowler, OT 8 committed murder, it is quite possible that a psychotic scientologist might try to murder Gerry. Of course it is possible a psychotic scientologist might be capable of committing murder: scientologists are neither immune to psychosis nor morally superior, as they claim to be. But Gerry concludes that the cause of such an act would be due to psychosis being “installed” via "the tech". Such a conclusion turns every single scientologist into a potential "Manchurian Candidate" style murderer.

I never said I did not think Rathbun and Rinder should help Gerry, as he asks. They "should" do the right thing. But here’s the problem: due to the faulty thinking about scientology (overall), Gerry will always be an “SP”: one who spews generalities (Gerry’s above conclusions) about scientology and scientologists as a whole, across the world. An SP, according to LRon, is not someone who is just critical but who denies the rights of others. There is some truth to the fact that by disseminating these faulty conclusions, Gerry could be denying the rights of others. If the German government were to buy into Gerry’s conclusions about scientology and scientologists as a whole, imagine the outcome. Every single scientologist is seen as a psychopath in the making, the psychosis program having been necessarily “installed”, as Gerry (and Caroline) say, by the tech, in every single scientologist who has “ethics, tech and/or admin” applied to them. As long as Gerry maintains this position, Rathbun and Rinder, because of their belief system, will never be able to help him. So... I can see their point of view as well.

I also observed Gerry’s own remorse in having signed the unbelievable gag order. He knew what he was doing but he also did feel heavy pressure to sign it. I see that in hindsight he realizes he made an unbelievable mistake, but felt he had no choice given the circumstances. Unfortunately, I see Gerry making a mistake again, through faulty thinking (as outlined above) and cutting himself off from the possibly of getting some relief.

I realize that Gerry is not the only one who believes LRon was psychotic, and that all scientologists have “installed temporary psychosis” from having the tech applied to them. Personally, I think those people who share this faulty thinking and conclusion, are not helping Gerry one bit, but rather are helping to keep him from resolving his situation. That may be a tough pill for some to swallow, it's my observation, take it or leave it.

Thanks for laying this subject to rest for me personally. I apologize for calling the video a “promo piece”. That was hasty criticism on my part, and I no longer think it's true.

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], MSNbot Media and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group