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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:56 am 
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Gumbythetruth wrote:
Karen#1 wrote:

Thousands of forced abortions subsequently occurred. Whereas most RELIGIONS honor the nucleus family and encourage the nurturing and building block of society ~~ the CULT of SCIENTOLOGY has a track record of GENOCIDE or unborn babies.

Karen#1. Do you have documentation to support your above statement that in fact thousands of forced abortions occurred?


GUMBY :::

Here is a quote from the Head of Planned Parenthood in Riverside To German television, where the following quote was on camera.

The reality of coerced abortions


Quote:
In 1997, in response to the high volume of Scientology staff sent to have abortions, the head of Planned Parenthood in Riverside, CA (Janet Honn-Alex) said, "I just felt that it was strange that they would all make the same decision. Independent of their individual circumstances, they had all made the decision to have an abortion, no matter how old they were or how many children they already had. We found that almost unbelievable. And when we started asking more questions, in order to find out their individual motives, because we were suspicious, they stopped coming to us altogether."


Obviously The CULT does not keep stats on ordered abortions, but when I was at INT Base, I was in the MLO Office a few times. (Medical Office).

When the Girls came back from the Abortions, they would go to the MLO office for vitamins, for a note from the Medical officer to give their senior to be given permission to be off work for the rest of the day.

At a good guess, some 7-10 Sea Org members had abortions weekly. In those days, INT BASE has 1000 staff.

Now calculate that as on going for 25 years or so.
Now calculate other Sea Org bases where the same thing occurred, Pac Base,(Los Angeles) AOSHUK, (East Grinstead), AOSHEU (Copenhangen) Melbourne, Australia for Sea Org Australia and so on for any SO base for all their abortions for the last 25 years or so.

Taking into consideration all Sea Org bases and that this continued for more than 2 decades, I think the math is pretty accurate.

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Last edited by Karen#1 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:17 am 
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I'mglib wrote:
On that excellent note, I am going to move posts that don't have to do with the topic from here out to another thread, where people can continue to express their important opinions.


I hope you do not move any posts to another thread. In this particular thread, it would seem as if you were trying to stifle people's opinions and not really moving them so "people can continue to expess their important opinions", ouch!


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:37 am 
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Look, it's a thread about abuse, not about whether Karen likes LRH. Soon it will be a thread about nothing. It's not even about whether LRH was the source of abuse, but about getting Karen to admit it. I happen to agree with people that LRH is the source of the abuse. However, I don't think people should be forced to agree, or the thread will be derailed.

I know there are others that wish to see the thread stay on the subject of abuse (who aren't indies and aren't pro Hubbard) who haven't posted. But let's face it, the vocal posters are going to do what they're going to do, and one person can't change it. And these folks might call me biased or an opinion stifler. Ouch. I doubt there's a board with looser moderating.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:48 am 
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I'mglib wrote:
Look, it's a thread about abuse, not about whether Karen likes LRH. Soon it will be a thread about nothing. It's not even about whether LRH was the source of abuse, but about getting Karen to admit it. I happen to agree with people that LRH is the source of the abuse. However, I don't think people should be forced to agree, or the thread will be derailed.

I know there are others that wish to see the thread stay on the subject of abuse (who aren't indies and aren't pro Hubbard) who haven't posted. But let's face it, the vocal posters are going to do what they're going to do, and one person can't change it. And these folks might call me biased or an opinion stifler. Ouch. I doubt there's a board with looser moderating.

Glibby

I think you're misreading what's going on. None of this is about attacking or hounding Karen, as far as I can see. But of course I'll respect any decision you make. I know you have to make difficult decisions and not everyone will always agree with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:24 am 
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I want to add one more piece of data concerning girls at INT Base who have returned having had abortions.

They are assigned a Condition of Confusion.
They must work their way up and do written formulas for
Treason, Enemy, Doubt, Liability with extensive AMENDS.

There are many punitive actions that go into force for being in a "LOWERED CONDITION."

Treasonous
to the group calling itself the "SEA ORG" to want a BABY or get pregnant.

The sheer hypocrisy of a group that claims they can alleviate incidents of
Unconsciousness called ENGRAMS.

while they willy nilly ORDER incidents of ANESTHESIA (abortions)

Enforced abortions with low conditions assigned also well reported on ESMB by Australian
girls that went through it.

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This is my YouTube Channel ~~ click here
http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology

Please follow me on Twitter @karendlacariere


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:05 am 
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operatingwog wrote:
...None of this is about attacking or hounding Karen, as far as I can see....

As far as I can see it is all about attacking and harassing Karen. It is yet another SPDL gangbang sec check.

Mods: Please do clip all threads that are off topic in this thread.

Caroline: This is your legal notification that I have posted at this time and in this place. Please let me know if your side needs a paper copy. /s/ J. Swift

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:31 am 
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*Sigh.*

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:27 pm 
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I'mglib wrote:
On that excellent note, I am going to move posts that don't have to do with the topic from here out to another thread, where people can continue to express their important opinions.


Thank you!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:19 pm 
Karen#1 wrote:
Gumbythetruth wrote:
Karen#1 wrote:

Thousands of forced abortions subsequently occurred. Whereas most RELIGIONS honor the nucleus family and encourage the nurturing and building block of society ~~ the CULT of SCIENTOLOGY has a track record of GENOCIDE or unborn babies.

Karen#1. Do you have documentation to support your above statement that in fact thousands of forced abortions occurred?


GUMBY :::

Here is a quote from the Head of Planned Parenthood in Riverside To German television, where the following quote was on camera.

The reality of coerced abortions


Quote:
In 1997, in response to the high volume of Scientology staff sent to have abortions, the head of Planned Parenthood in Riverside, CA (Janet Honn-Alex) said, "I just felt that it was strange that they would all make the same decision. Independent of their individual circumstances, they had all made the decision to have an abortion, no matter how old they were or how many children they already had. We found that almost unbelievable. And when we started asking more questions, in order to find out their individual motives, because we were suspicious, they stopped coming to us altogether."


Obviously The CULT does not keep stats on ordered abortions, but when I was at INT Base, I was in the MLO Office a few times. (Medical Office).

When the Girls came back from the Abortions, they would go to the MLO office for vitamins, for a note from the Medical officer to give their senior to be given permission to be off work for the rest of the day.

At a good guess, some 7-10 Sea Org members had abortions weekly. In those days, INT BASE has 1000 staff.

Now calculate that as on going for 25 years or so.
Now calculate other Sea Org bases where the same thing occurred, Pac Base,(Los Angeles) AOSHUK, (East Grinstead), AOSHEU (Copenhangen) Melbourne, Australia for Sea Org Australia and so on for any SO base for all their abortions for the last 25 years or so.

Taking into consideration all Sea Org bases and that this continued for more than 2 decades, I think the math is pretty accurate.


Thank you Karen#1 for the background information regarding SO coerced abortions. If in fact these numbers are true, I as a citizen am very very concerned about this. Not from a religious point of view but as a caring fellow human being. This disturbs me far more than anything else that has happened within the gates of INTER Base. As I recall during my short time there, many of the SO that I worked with directly were women. I never in a million years would have never guessed that this policy was in place @ the very same time I met those women back in 1991. I know a few brave souls have stepped forward and shared their personal stories about these policy driven abortions. I wish somewhat selfishly that hundreds more would come forward. Can you imagine what it would look like to have 1000 women @ the front gates of IB holding signs stating they where coerced into having an abortion in order to meet SO policy? I think the nation would!


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:30 pm 
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I'mglib wrote:
On that excellent note, I am going to move posts that don't have to do with the topic from here out to another thread, where people can continue to express their important opinions.

Thank you from me too!

I'm so glad the SP Times and Tony Ortega (Village Voice) and all other news outlets (especially in Australia!) went ahead and published the Indies' stories, in spite of the Indies' beliefs. I'm glad Tobin and Ortega did not clutter the Indies' stories with lots of editorial about how a man who died 30 years ago is still causing all of this abuse- abuse that is still happening today. I'm glad Tobin and Ortega do not have such huge egos that they think their personal opinions are way more important than letting a victim tell their personal story, to the point where the story is lost.

From what I understand, scientology's and LRon's reputations are in the toilet, below any other group or religion. This poor public opinion (of LRon and CoS) is not what will make the authorities do something about scientology. What will make the authorities do something and what will make the public outcry grow to a loud, megaphone voice is the exposure of the abuse that continues to go on in CoS! Do the general public really care why abuse is happening in scientology? Did the public really care why 70 year old FLDS men raped their 13 year old multiple "wives"? People generally ask why later, after the perps have been arrested. Until then it is the fact that it is happening, not why it is happening that gets attention. There are plenty of threads here at clambake addressing the evil of scientology and LRon and how LRon's ideology creates psychopathic abusers. If you want to discuss that, many of those threads were recently excavated for that purpose. It's not about stifling opinion. It's about moderation that allows everyone a chance to speak without being harassed. It's about keeping discussions on topic so they do not devolve into in-coherency.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:43 pm 
You know, when I think about the topic of this thread, I have to take a deep breath and attempt to understand why all these horrible things have happened. As I have read so much about scientology over the years,an inescapable truth has come to me in understanding one thing. Oh so many good well intentioned human beings wanted something that had meaning to them. Sadly, once getting involved with scientology, especially the SO they entered a culture that would nurture and feed the negative side of they're being. I think this is where i personally stray in my thought processes on the subject.

The problem arises from the culture in which those scientologists lived. This is why I cannot accept scientology personally as a healthy way of life. Yet I must take into consideration with compassion the feelings and thoughts of the individual adherent.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:46 pm 
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GUMBY :::::

Thank you. I have read your *ADVENTURES* at GOLD/INT base and how you made it go right to get a day off for "THANKSGIVING" (dinner.) Interesting perspectives.

I think you got a good glimpse into the culture.
By the way, a note on Riverside Planned Parenthood ~~When they stopped going to Planned Parenthood, they simply switched to other abortion clinics.


Alexander Jentzsch, my son married Andrea, a wonderful girl born and raised in Scientology. All 3 of her sisters were in the Sea Org. All FLED and are OUT.

Here is Andrea
Image

She is quite a beauty ~~

More pictures of Andrea Jentzsch

http://www.exploretalent.com/andreajentzsch

Andrea got pregnant and they were taken off their posts. This was some 5 years ago.

They were handled *KINDLY* ~~ so Alexander said to me.
No screaming, no threatening, no heavy Ethics.

Note: The definition of the SEA Org being KIND is Absence of stiff discipline.
Andrea, pregnant and with child was sent to the GALLEY (KITCHEN) to wash dishes, on her feet, 8 hours a day. Washing dishes is a lower level punisment than the draconian cleaning of the grease traps under the Gallery.

A Sea Org member quickly gets the message, when they have to stand 8 hours a day washing dishes.

Andrea and Alexander were made by the Execs in PAC to look "at the greatest good." The "Greatest good" was kill the baby immediately as the Sea Org needs to suck out every working hour for maximum production so that DM's 1 billion dollar slush fund can keep escalating.

Come on, Come on, lots of funds are needed for the all the lawyers and PIs on the payroll. Bunches and Bunches of Lawyers and bunches and bunches of PIs...do not come cheaply !!

More new $$$$$$$$ is needed every year, every month, every week, every hour, every minute....how dare one think to take 1 hour family time or have 2 weeks off for pregnancy ??????

To hell with anything, any life, other than production than for Miscavology. Miscavige rules the Sea Organization with an Iron Hand., Dark heart, Iron hand.

Discipline and punishments have gotten progressively worse by the year.

_________________
Karen de la Carriere
Karendelac@gmail.com


This is my YouTube Channel ~~ click here
http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology

Please follow me on Twitter @karendlacariere


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:35 pm 
Karen#1 wrote:
GUMBY :::::

Thank you. I have read your *ADVENTURES* at GOLD/INT base and how you made it go right to get a day off for "THANKSGIVING" (dinner.) Interesting perspectives.

I think you got a good glimpse into the culture.
By the way, a note on Riverside Planned Parenthood ~~When they stopped going to Planned Parenthood, they simply switched to other abortion clinics.


Alexander Jentzsch, my son married Andrea, a wonderful girl born and raised in Scientology. All 3 of her sisters were in the Sea Org. All FLED and are OUT.

Here is Andrea
Image

She is quite a beauty ~~

More pictures of Andrea Jentzsch

http://www.exploretalent.com/andreajentzsch

Andrea got pregnant and they were taken off their posts. This was some 5 years ago.

They were handled *KINDLY* ~~ so Alexander said to me.
No screaming, no threatening, no heavy Ethics.

Note: The definition of the SEA Org being KIND is Absence of stiff discipline.
Andrea, pregnant and with child was sent to the GALLEY (KITCHEN) to wash dishes, on her feet, 8 hours a day. Washing dishes is a lower level punisment than the draconian cleaning of the grease traps under the Gallery.

A Sea Org member quickly gets the message, when they have to stand 8 hours a day washing dishes.

Andrea and Alexander were made by the Execs in PAC to look "at the greatest good." The "Greatest good" was kill the baby immediately as the Sea Org needs to suck out every working hour for maximum production so that DM's 1 billion dollar slush fund can keep escalating.

Come on, Come on, lots of funds are needed for the all the lawyers and PIs on the payroll. Bunches and Bunches of Lawyers and bunches and bunches of PIs...do not come cheaply !!

More new $$$$$$$$ is needed every year, every month, every week, every hour, every minute....how dare one think to take 1 hour family time or have 2 weeks off for pregnancy ??????

To hell with anything, any life, other than production than for Miscavology. Miscavige rules the Sea Organization with an Iron Hand., Dark heart, Iron hand.

Discipline and punishments have gotten progressively worse by the year.


Thanks for the thanks Karen#1. Good to see some loved one's have blown from the SO. As to my "Thanksgiving" as a wog being subjected to cines need to keep on working, Well to this day I do not know where the order came from that we wogs were supposed to work on a holiday. I was far from home as I lived on the east coast and had not been home in several weeks. Heck, at the time I did not even know "Thanksgiving" was not celebrated by all @ Gold.

On another note, would it not be in the best interest for COB to have babies around??? Are not children the future? Or are they within the context of the SO a financial drain and not of benefit to the SO families involved?


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Gumbythetruth wrote:
On another note, would it not be in the best interest for COB to have babies around??? Are not children the future? Or are they within the context of the SO a financial drain and not of benefit to the SO families involved?
They don't need them to replenish the SO because the current sea ogres will come back in their next lives and turn up for rice, beans and a side order of abuse all over again (as per contract).

_________________
“These guys are crazy. And all of this shit is straight out of the L. Ron Hubbard playbook. That’s their scriptures. They say they’re not a turn-the-other-cheek religion. No. They’re a knock-you-down-and-kick-you-in-the-balls religion.” Jason Beghe


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:12 am 
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Gumbythetruth wrote:
On another note, would it not be in the best interest for COB to have babies around??? Are not children the future? Or are they within the context of the SO a financial drain and not of benefit to the SO families involved?


The Sea Org has many "recruit pools", including the children of public Scientologists, and children of outer org staff members. It was probably found to be more cost-effective to recruit working-aged children who are already well-indoctrinated.

Dr. Lottick points out in his book that the vulnerable age group is 18-25, or even older.

Dr. Edward Lottick wrote:
The ages 18 to 25 are the years young people are most vulnerable to deceptive recruiting by destructive organizations. Our costly lapse was to feel we were virtuously avoiding being intrusive because we wanted to encourage Noah at age 23 to find his own way. We didn't realize that we all were dealing with a carefully contrived influence program directed at those whose brains are not fully matured until their late 20s or even their early 30s. Current neuroscience research has clearly established that the brain is often not completely formed until age 30. I return to this topic later. See Item I in the Relevant Reading List.

____
I. Lottick "Psychologist Survey Regarding Cults" Cultic Studies Review (Snarefree.org)

Lottick, E., (2007-2012). Remembering Noah (Why Did He Do That?): A Parent's Twenty-Two-Year Scientology Cult Odyssey


Publisher of Remembering Noah wrote:
NOT FOR PUBIC SALE

This book has been privately prepared for the Foundation for Human Rights, which is dedicated to alerting young people to the presence and dangers of cults in our midst. Anyone sending a minimum donation of $20 to further the work of the foundation may request a complimentary copy of this book.

Foundation for Human Rights
41 Gershom Place
Kingston, PA 18704

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