There are too many unbalanced CoS members that have done crazy things, to just brush this off. And, if he kept stalking, he might have gotten more obsessed - for example he might have tried to stage an auto accident. This was not safe for you, Susan, or for your loved ones. He and CoS need to feel some consequences, so the next woman critic and her family will be safer.

I don't think there is any justification, and I don't want Cliff or other Scientologists spying on critics.

On the other hand, I don't want to turn around and do the same thing to them.

It's a tricky thing. I remember when RFW had that stupid message board going, and how they would post critics' names, jobs, and other personal info. They still do on the main board and it's sickening that they get away with it.

But the answer isn't to do the same thing back.

What is the answer?

I dunno. But it seems to me that we all have to see each other as people. Over the years I have gotten less angry. I remember getting SO upset when the handlers handed out anti-anonymous propaganda at protests that was full of misleading and untrue things.

Now I am more philisophical.

All I know is that I don't want to sound like Mary DeMoss in the Mary-go-round video that Mark Bunker made. She was so personally insulting in this nauseatingly sarcastic way that I really really want to avoid doing anything close to that. It's not effective, either. It's so easy to get wrapped up in the "us versus them" and I really think that part of the point of having handlers is to make sure there is a divide and bad feelings between the individuals themselves, making it harder to hear each other and make changes. I feel this is intentional on the church's part, and I don't want to do that.

It's part of what I have learned after posting on this and other message boards so long. Avoid hyperbole. Avoid personal insults and ad hominem arguments. Work harder to make a reasoned, rational, factual argument, rather than throwing around insults.

But, again, spying on people is bad.

Exposing the truth with transparency is not doing "the same thing to them." Without the facts being bared for the public to see, the OC Weekly article about your harassment would be seen as nothing but an argument between you and Karen Pouw. You say you're being followed.. Karen says you're a liar.

Nice tact the OC Weekly played, by the way, inserting "allegedly" into the title..

If you can engage the guy in conversation use Steven Hassan's strategic interaction approach on him. You do have a copy of Releasing the Bonds, don't you?

Get good at that and you can make it so every person OSA sends after you leaves $cientology shortly after they assign them to you. Three or four of those and they'll stop doing it.

In my assessment, what Cliff does is not really spying because he cannot get any valuable information by doing what he does. This is intimidation technique aimed to force a person under ‘surveillance” to stop from doing damage to CoS. In I’mglib’s case this would be stopping her from moderating this board.

Hi, Cliff!

I don't suppose you're one of the Scientologists who give the protestors who wear masks or cover their faces while they protest a hard time for doing so? Saying they're cowards and criminals?

Thanks for proving that avoiding being stalked (whether or not what you're doing fits the legal definition of stalking, what would you call what you're doing?) by you is a good reason to hide our identities.

Oh wait. Maybe I'm out of line. As an SP, Susan is Fair Game according to LRH policy, right? You're just doing your Good Scientologist Thing. Well done!

Anyway, I look forward to invoking your name while protesting when people inevitably ask me, "Why the mask?" Here's a rough draft of what I'd say:

"To avoid being harassed. For example, there's this Scientologist Cliff Miller from the L.A. area who's taken it upon himself to keep a watch on - some would say "stalk" - our friend Susan's home and her family -- because she's a Scientology critic."

Good stuff!

Thanks, Cliff!

First, Cliff's watching Susan has nothing to do with this board. Her moderating OCMB is not a threat to the cult. Don Carlo is partially correct.. it is an intimidation technique as well as a very paranoid cult with some "nice people" operating in a very paranoid, delusional mindset.. Glib is a dangerous terrorist who needs to be stopped.

Glib is more of an interest to the cult now because she's become pals with Paulien Lombard, a recent ex-Scientologist, who exposed the black ops implemented in Glib's case. Any critic that is subject to black ops has a "folder" on them and their name goes up on the War Board, that is, a board that lists the SPs the cult deem dangerous, that need to be targeted, and stopped per Scilon policy. Imagine if the KGB was still around, and one of their agents recently quit and was known to be friends with, and has been in the home of Glib. Russian agents would be crawling all over Glib's neighborhood.

In this case, it's delusional Scilons who think that Glib is alot more involved in covert attacks on the cult, than just protesting & posting on WWP & OCMB. Glib has also opened her doors to the parents of other SO members & assisted them. Call it an issue of guilt by association. Playing nice with Scilons who are in the mindset that you are a dangerous enemy that needs to be shut down, is not the best avenue, Glib, if you are at all concerned for the safety of your family & yourself.

I recall the numerous back-and-forth phone calls I had with Bob Minton, after months of him feeling invincible, attacking & protesting the cult, when they assigned OSA volunteers & PIs to follow, photograph, and harass his two young daughters. They'd hang outside their elementary school, photograph them playing with their friends, then send the photos to Bob with comments insinuating his daughters could be grabbed at any time. Bob didn't feel so invincible after that.

Cliff's actions needed to be exposed, and they need to stop. Events, like that which occurred with Paulien Lombard, don't occur often.

Yesterday I contacted Cliff via FB. The content of my message is a copy of my article that I posted here, at OCMB. Here is the link

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39538

Cliff,
You are screwed -- you cannot cross the Bridge to Total Freedom, you cannot even approach it. Forget about stalking SPs -- now you have more important things to do such as taking care of yourself. But you cannot help yourself no matter what you do. Do you know why? Because Xenu always wins!!
Here we all serve Xenu, you should have known that. Now your life is ruined.

Be careful. You don't want FB to delete your page over a charge of harassing Clif for his "religious" beliefs.

Smurf,
I do not mind if my FB page is gone. I was not using my real name when I created it. This page served me well when I was conducting anti-evolutionary debates. Now it has outlived its usefulness. Besides, it was hacked once, so I was not using it for a long period of time.

I have some Facebook friends that would run out & hang themselves if they were cut off from using FB.

This'll make you swoon..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKSKA0LTkWE&feature=plcp&context=C4cc96dfVDvjVQa1PpcFOlz_F-FtXT5nnBXKgwJvkZVDHXS4ITh5U%3D

http://heartodayoc.com/

Haha, no way! It's in Laguna Beach even. Maybe he liked hanging around so much he decided to stay for a wedding.

I "liked" the video. Think he'll notice?

Edit: I recognize the places where he's playing.

I love the internet. Seeing him sing really messes my mind up. He's actually a pretty good guitar player. What the heck?

It's like I always say--we're all just people. The church does the things INTENTIONALLY to pit us against each other. Like have spies and handlers. I seriously believe they do this ON PURPOSE so we're against each other and therefore can't talk.

re: handlers and the cult pitting Scientologists against people who disapprove of Scientology... absolutely true.

At the Janet Reitman event at the Jewish Community Center in SF, I actually got to talk to SF Org handler Bill and asked him the Burning Question: "Why don't you eat one of my cupcakes?"

"Well," he explained, gesturing with this hands to him and to me, "we're on different sides."


l-r: Tommy Gorman, and Bill... who is protecting the Scientologists from the SPs

Does that mean we're at war? Are we playing a game? I wish that I'd ask him that. Even, say, Democrats and Republicans aren't necessarily on different "sides." They just have different points of view.

Eating a freaking cupcake, Bill. They're free. Unlike Scientology.

skeptic2girl, I'm going to follow you and derail this thread. Those cupcakes look really good. I very much would have gladly accepted one from you. OMNOMNOMNOM!

There, all of you get back on topic.