Is the withhold-overt shit is a powerful mind controlling technique? A psychologist mentioned at this tape believes so. But my experience disagrees with her assessment.

When I was in Sea Org I committed crimes such as illegal gambling, use of marijuana, illegal use of Sprint services, etc. I mean, those were violations of real laws, not of Scientology ethics. My multiple breakings of the laws could have given CoS a black eye. I violated Scientology ethics as well by visiting strip clubs, not using word clearing procedure, attempting to steal an e-meter from a Hubbard office, etc. But I never had a scintilla of remorse when I thought about my illegal activities. I simply do not see how my withholds and overt acts could be used to control me. To top that, I knew how to fool e-meter, so it was highly unlikely that an auditor would caught me lying.

I wonder if anyone was susceptible to a mind control based on a withhold-overt procedure.

Awww, thanks Demented LRH that is really sweet of you but it is not necessary.

With all the people who come onto these forums just to try to stop us all from getting out the truth and with all deceptive twists & turns, "half truths", frauds and other crap we all have had to go through as part of being involved with scientology, it's a miracle so many of us can come together and fight the good fight to help stop the abuses rampant within scientology.

We're bound to step on each other's toes from time to time but our hearts are in the right place and that is what counts IMO.

w/<3

I can add a few small things that support who it was (L Ron vs. MarySue) that was really running things:

a) I was a fully hatted Legal Exec in GOWW for five years. Almost no parts of that hat were from MarySue. However, almost all of that hat was from LRH directly or indirectly;

b) I was in GOWW overseeing all legal matters outside of litigation involving scientology in 1977 when those FBI raids happened in LA and DC. I witnessed that it took well over 100 staff weeks just to vet out of the GOWW files orders from Hubbard, compliances to Hubbard, idiot programs from Hubbard like "The Great Health Monolopy", "Operation Snow White", etc. A tiny, tiny percept of the files that needed to be vetted were from MarySue. I estimate that over 95% of the vetting was to protect L Ron who was the one really running the GO;

c) some years later I was on the Watchdog Committee and had at least 250 orders from Hubbard then. The only other person who could order me then was Miscavige. In that time period over $40 million dollars of scientology money was funneled to Hubbard;

d) prior to my GOWW days I ran the legal operations for scientology in the USA (outside of litigation) as part of USGO. In that time period I also complied with orders from Hubbard whose approval was needed for all truly major corporate matters.

FWIW, here is a posting I made on another forum re Hubbard and what he was like:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... post677152

I don't know anything about all that murder stuff but what Bill says about Hubbard rings totally true for my nine years or so of complying with his orders. This includes my being on the very first mission to incorporate WISE (in Liechtenstein) where I was run off Hubbard telexes. He also was involved in all the major planning for the launching of WISE, SMI and much more including getting into Clearwater to eventually take it over.

Bill's interview rings very true indeed IMO. He nails what Hubbard was really like based on all my experiences in dealing with Hubbard.

What a great interview with Bill Franks on The Edge. ....lots of jaw dropping details.

He talked about an assassination that occured in the 70's of a member of England's version of a Senator/Representative by the Guardians Office. He talked about how Hubbard oversaw it, and how he knew there was more assassinations.

He talked about how Hubbard ran the operation that fucked over Paulette Cooper.

He talked about how Hubbard ran an operation to deliberately frame Mary Sue for the Guardian's Office infiltration.

He talked about how Miscavige was just a power hungry psychopath.

He talked about how Hubbard was a paranoid psychopath.

He talked about how Hubbard knew O/Ws do not cause "blows". He said Hubbard knew the real reason people left was because of ARC breaks. he said that Hubbard knew that people quit $cientology when they've didn't want to put up with anymore shit. He also made the point that O/W tech is brainwashing, and that if you insert that tidbit of truth about ARC breaks, the entire 'philosophy' falls apart because it's the pillar that's holding up 80% of $cientology.

In all, he confirmed and re-confirmed a lot that I already knew.

And, once again, I'm pissed off.

Another thing I forgot to mention was that he said they were spending $$$$ 2 Million A MONTH on lawyer's fees.

Tempers can run pretty high here - and by "here", I mean the 3 major Scientology Criticism sites. I've flown off the handle myself on occasion. That said, we could all take a lesson from D-LRH here, no?

(Thanks D-LRH...)

"The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off."
Gloria Steinem

I would like to hear this interview but I'm not having any success when following the link - I'm clicking on "here" as instructed.
Anyone else in the U K having similar problems ?

I've listened to Tom Smith in the past without problems.

Guess I'll just keep trying unless anyone can come up with a different link.

I am not a Scientology historian, but I heard that Mary Sue was no saint, she played her part in the past Scientology expansion (nowadays the cult is shrinking). I do not feel sorry for her, she got what she deserved.

This is a link directly to the mp3 for the show.
http://theedgewithtomsmith.com/a/TheEdgeBFranks1.mp3
See if that works for you.

Thanks for yor help, Wieber.

That link worked for me, though I had to persevere for a while before successfully connecting.

A fascinating interview.

I am going back to the topic of overt-withhold. It pisses me off when Hubbard is portrayed as an “evil genius”. Evil as he was, the word “genius” does not apply to him. For God’s sake, the man was a complete idiot!

People have their own principles, no amount of overt-withhold procedures would lead to establishment of some kind of mental/moral control over them. I might have been a loose Sea Org canon, but I am sure that the other Sea Org members were not susceptible to the overt-withhold procedures, too.

I will be using myself as an example to show why mental control is not achieved via the Tech.

1. The government encourage American citizens to participate in all kinds of state lotto games (Mega Millions, Power Ball, etc). It is hypocritical of the government to say that gambling should be prohibited. I believe that gambling should be legalized in all states.

Now, if I am in a state where the gambling is banned, I would not feel guilty if I am playing poker in an illegal establishment. Instead, I will give myself a credit for doing a right thing.

2. I do not use hookers to provide comfort for myself, so to speak (I am quite capable of dating normal women). However, I believe that prostitution should be legalized. Theoretically speaking, if I’m in bed with a hooker, I would not think for a moment that I am committing an overt act.

3 I wrote previously that I was trying to steal an e-meter from a Hubbard office. This may look like an ordinary theft, but I had a justification for it -- as a Sea Org member, I was getting paid below minimum wage; I was just trying to recover the money that CoS owed me. It did not matter whether my justification was right or wrong -- I accepted it, which means that I did not feel bad about the theft.

Other, more serious types of crime.

I never had a desire to rape a woman, so I cannot even imagine what does it feel like to commit such a heinous act. But I can imagine killing a person.

1. Killing a person in a DWI incident is a horrific experience for everyone, including myself. But I‘m smart enough not to drive when I’m drunk, so I do not have to worry that I will ever have an overt of this nature.

2. If I kill someone in self-defense, I would not feel bad about it.

But what about the “crimes” against Scientology?

When I was told that failure to do word clearing is a high crime, I did not believe it (I have not seen a single HCOB about word clearing). I though that this was a gross exaggeration of LRH’s words about benefits of the clearing procedure. The whole “crime” idea seemed so childish to me (Now I am not surprised that Hubbard, who had mental capacity of a child, would say such ridiculous thing).

I helped an EPFer by giving her the answers to the EPF Final Exam. That was a very serious violation of Scientology ethics. But I thought that I was doing favor to her Org because her departure from EPF would increase the Org’s manpower.

My point is that when Scientologists commit crimes, real or imaginary, they do not see their activities as criminal, so the whole overt-withhold thing does not mean much to them.

The real mechanism behind Scientology mind control is the CoS’ ability to deny an individual Scientology-style Salvation.

I think if we get much into discussing the overt/withhold/confessional methodology as it applies to mind control that it will take this thread off on a tangent. $cientology is not the only organization to attain mind control results using the technique of getting people to confess crimes. One example of this is in Robert Jay Lifton's Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.

As to Hubbard's intellect, I think it was not staggering, prodigious nor even brobdingnagian. For sure people who have been recognized as intellectual giants and high school graduates have no fear of competition from the likes of Hubbard, at least as long as they stay away from $cientology.

As I understand it Hubbard read very widely. He probably read books that he forbade those involved in $cientology to read. Most likely they were books written to help people from being subjected to mind control techniques, which he then used to gain more and more control over his followers.

Yes, the topic of withholds does not belong to this thread, I got carried away.

Talking about the murder of MP -- how deep one must be into Scientology to carry out an order to kill a person?

Was this murder designed to look like an accident? That might explain why it wasn't a major news story.