Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
Post Reply
User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Wieber » Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:13 am

I searched Google for 'chain locker' and looked at the images. I found this photograph of a clean chain locker in a ship under construction. You can get a sense of scale from the ladder at the upper left. The interior size of a chain locker would depend on the size and length of chain it needs to store. Generally the larger the ship, the larger the chain and therefore the larger the chain locker. Hubbard's Apollo was not a large ship. Neither is Freewinds.
Image
From the diagrams and drawings I take it chain lockers tend to be close to the bow on most ships. The walls and floor are therefore not likely to be level. There is usually a false bottom on the chain locker and below that there is what is called a bilge well. This is where the water from the anchor chain drains and presumably it is then pumped out. Photographs of chain lockers that have been in use for any length of time show them to be extremely rusty indicating that they tend to be damp. Chain lockers have no interior lighting and when the access hatch is closed the chamber is in complete darkness. Being imprisoned in such a space would be very noxious, uncomfortable and dangerous.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

Grassyknoll
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:54 am

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientol

Post by Grassyknoll » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:25 am

Wieber wrote:Battlefield Earth's Stats

Battlefield Earth's Rotten Tomatoes page.
Tomatometer; 3% -- 139 rotten (bad reviews), 4 fresh (good reviews)
Audience: 11% liked it.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/battlefield_earth/

Box Office Mojo for Battlefield Earth
Production budget: $73 million
Domestic Gross: $21,471,685
Foreign Gross: $8,253,978
Combined: $29,725,663
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=bat ... dearth.htm

IMDb stats for Battlefield Earth
Rating: 2.4 out of 10
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185183/?ref_=nv_sr_2
IMDb ranking in IMDb's Bottom 100: 75
(It shares it's 2.4 rating with 14 other movies.)
http://www.imdb.com/chart/bottom?ref_=nv_sr_1

It would probably place lower if IMDb removed all the 10 ratings people involved in Scientology have given it.
I remember Siskel and Ebert reviewing this film and they absolutely hated it!!
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Grassyknoll
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:54 am

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientol

Post by Grassyknoll » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:20 am

Don Carlo wrote:The media wants a story where the wicked is punished and the good are saved. When the wicked (Miscavige) finally get justice, this will be one of the news stories of the decade, with Travolta/Cruise/Alley/Elfman/Archer saying "poor little celebrity meeee... I didn't know my churrrrch was evil. How was I to know how to use Google?"
When this happens and celebs say this, we're NOT going to go for it.
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Grassyknoll
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:54 am

Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Grassyknoll » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:27 am

Don Carlo wrote:Sea Org didn't think outsiders would be shocked at 24 women arriving at once in two vans, for abortions?
This was like a free clinic that the women were taken to it sounds like. Which most likely means that the women had no choice but to be awake during the procedure. God I hope not.
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:32 am

Grassy Knoll ~~ Here is a video on my YouTUBE channel on enforced abortions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Gpzl0cLY

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:25 pm

One of the features which make Scientology inc a CULT is its efforts to hold on to someone against their will and to refuse to let someone depart who has asked to leave. Paranoid and fearful that the new departure will reveal what goes behind (gross, draconian unspeakable atrocities called "religious discipline" ) People have to flee to get out of there.
Here's another escape story from 8-8008ASHO on Ex Scientology message Board (ESMB)
Patron
8-8008ASHO
Exit from PAC BASE - PART 1

Hello,
This weekend I was watching a documentary about abuses and people being locked inside room for days, weeks, months.
That made me think of my EXIT from the PAC BASE. This is my story but many did get through the same Exit.

1. When I was seen in Ethics, by my Ethics Office, the PAC Security, I was told that I was going to sleep in a room alone. This meant, I was being put on WATCH ! Someone from HCO was outside all night long to make sure I was not going to run away.
2. I was in that room for about 1 month. I could go out on the stairs few minutes a day.
3. I was then put into an auditing room (One near the Security Guard office). I was not allowed to go out. I was staying in there from 9 am til 10 pm. This went on for 2 months. My food was brought in there, I was told to write my Overts and Withholds. Every time I thought I was done, I was told to write some more... It went on to a point where I was kind of "making up overts and withhold". I had write over 1000 of them.
4. After those 2 months, I was put inside a room in the basement with some others who were going out. I did not know they were so many. About 20 people. We were made to read books, listening to lectures, write more OW...
5. I moved from that room to a dorm with the guys getting out. There was also a dorm for women. We were all in there at night, speaking, reading, nattering...
6. One guys had been there for 1 year and was still not out.
7. I waited 3 more months to start my Sec Check. Proccessing to get out of there.
8. After 10 sessions, I thought I was done... I was again being SecCheck... it went on and It was going nowhere. bugging...
9. I Waited another 3 months for my Comm-Ev... which one lasted 1 more month.
10. We were not allowed to go outside, but stay in that room all day long. The only place we could go was on the stairwell to get some space above LA.
11. My auditing went wrong and was assigned a new auditor. It took again weeks...

In the meantime some people were going, happy to finally be OUT ! Those guys had been there 8, 9, 10 months or 1 year 1/2...

When I left, I had been there for 10 months... Looking at it now, I was soooo brainwashed that I agreed with it. Now, I would have ran out... and tell them to get F---.

When I left, I had nothing except $500 which was given by the Co$ My family paid for my plane ticket, I was living at my mother's place for 6 months. I got a laptop from one of my family member... I had nothing, did not know what to do except reconnecting to my family. I had been pretending to work to salvage this society, this world
Then I started to meet some people, nice people, real people with their head on their shoulders ! It was finally fun to be with REAL people !
One of them asked me what I wanted to do, I was not sure and she gave me some ideas... Oh ! WOG knew what to say in fact Scientology is sooo much into their stuff that they forget that some REAL people exist.
Then I trained for 2 years in a domain I did not know. It was fun... I found a job to get this training into practice. I love it and my boss was pleased with my work.
In between, I got some email from CJC WUS asking me where I was standing with my A to E steps. I answered him... and it was going nowhere. I managed to get in communication with my ex wife who wanted to help me and to get through my A to E steps. I was happy to speak to her. Even if she was my ex wife, she was a very good friend.
I went on the internet to found some old friend and found this website. My old login is 8-8008 euh !!! I lost my password and also the password for the email address I used for this website... And why now I am 8-8008ASHO
I found some friends here... I travelled back to the US to meet those people. It was fun.
I then decided to write a doubt condition and decided I was not part of this Co$ bullshit management. I mentioned it to my ex wife who disconnected from me. My kid disconnected from me, others did too. I cannot speak with my kid anymore. I know she loves me and she knows I do too. I hope with time, she will get out and get back in communication. I tried to get data from the inside. I got some, a little bit, Apparently she is OK...
I wrote to CJC and told him the same.
I found more friends on the internet whom I am in communication with.
I found some people who are still in Scientology and they were so happy to have some news but the EO found out they were in communication with me so they disconnected because they were told to do so BUT wished they could still speak to me.
In the meantime, as I mentionned it earlier in this thread, found a new girlfriend, got a little one who is now 4 years old, great job, bought a house... and travelling... and the BEST reconnected with the entire family and we are soooo happy, enjoying life.
If anyone of you want to come over, in Europe, let me know, we can meet, make BBQ, visit stuff...
Have fun and enjoy LIFE

Well I thought about writing a book or few ones My experience in Scn, connected with Exec, reges, IAS... could be fun to write about. Well would take too much time ! Maybe get a blog... Will see with time !!!

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Wieber » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:09 am

8-8008ASHO is out. 8-8008ASHO, this is for you.

:dancing7up:
Woot!
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:19 am

Mario Fenninger RIP.
Illustrious pianist. Mentor and exceptional Music teacher.
A fund raising was done for Mario a few years ago as he was pretty penniless. He did come into some money earlier, but the Cult gouged it all.
So a fund raising was done supposedly to give him a little cushion.
I may not be 100% accurate on figures but something like $25,000 was raised.
Then CC INT wanted its CUT.
The mafia cut of revenues.
A large percentage was taken for use of their property for the fund raising. Then a percentage was taken for the promo costs. Then a percentage was taken for the catering (huge amount)
I was told, he was left with something like $2500 after the Cult took its share.
Poor Mario, he just died at 95 still in the Cult that bled him dry. RIP.

Image

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:50 pm

Marty Rathbun defends Scientology leader David Miscavige as he trashes tell-all memoir ‘Ruthless’

http://tonyortega.org/2016/09/01/marty- ... qus_thread

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:32 pm

Scientology Insider Dan Koon - Part 1 of His Story
Image
Dan Koon and wife Mariette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuvoBDjTF7w

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:30 am



I think having lengthy on-going stories told in parts, so that there is continuity of valuable information when the person telling the long story has an intimate and extensive history inside the Cult of Scientology, I think this is a good thing.

These stories are told from the viewpoint or paradigm of the person telling the story and that is understood. But the education and value is phenomenal.

Today I am going to start telling the story of an Apollo crew member who spent many long hours a day with Hubbard, day in and day out, month in and month out, year in and year out. He told this story on ESMB. Ex Scientology Message Board. It is certainly worth a re-visit.

Janis Grady and myself recognized who he was from his postings and I was truly delighted to meet him in Las Vegas at a re-union where Janis seated us together for dinner. Only Janis can pull off something like that. Having others connect with others for the first time decades later. What an experience !

Cowboy starts his story ~~ Part 1

Many years ago, within the structure of the C of S, Flag was paramount. But removed and cloaked in secrecy was the special unit, hidden in various places, primarily southern Calif. However, removed and hidden from those at the special unit was a series of smaller bases, where Hubbard worked with a trusted few. Many of their names are known. Some are not.

I spent thousands of hours over many years in daily contact with Hubbard and experienced first hand more than most could even imagine.

Only the very tip of the iceberg is talked about here.

Few can truly understand what went on in the final days.
A random night, Hubbard couldn't sleep. He was hidden away, his location known to perhaps five people. In the wee hours of the morning, he decided to take a walk. His conversation rambled, reviewing upsets of the day. The only trouble was the fact that we were walking streets early in the morning attracted attention. A cop car pulled up behind us, the light flashed, and a cop got out. "I need to talk to you," the cop said when he got out.

The old man glanced at me. "Take care of it," he said, and kept walking, making his way back to the apartment that was his temporary home.

I turned to the officer and glibly made a joke about indigestion. Fifteen minutes later I slipped back into the apartment. "Well done," he said, and asked no more.

The old man's faith in me jumped up. And I found myself shouldering more responsibility and more secrets.
Hubbard was, if anything, unpredictable. In moments he could be charming, in others.... insane.

His paranoia was extreme, which led to his constant fear of being found. But he also worried of things beyond merely being arrested. Violence. Theft. Conspiracies and plots.

One night, worse than others, I slept on the floor outside his room, listening to his snoring all night.

Morning broke and within minutes his angered voice bellowed through the household. I was, literally, called on the carpet.

"I thought you slept outside my door last night," he said.

"I did."

"Then explain this!" he screamed. He threw down one of his brown half boot shoes. "Someone entered in the middle of the night and stole one shoe and replaced it with a smaller one. They're trying to make me think I'm insane."

I looked at the familiar shoes, which he wore every day. Both shoes were the very ones I was familiar with. The old man's face trembled with suppressed rage. He continued to berate me, screaming at my failure to protect him from the plots against him.

Just another day in paradise.

~~~~to be continued.

Image
Image

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Cowboy shares the tales of his life with L Ron Hubbard.

Cowboy ~~ Part 2
All credit to Ex-Scientology Message Board where this was reported 4 years ago.
Some of those at the top who've left would know me, in person or through my reputation. If some of you want to believe, or not to believe, it doesn't matter to me.

I arrived on the ship a child, enamored with the idea of meeting the demi-god Hubbard. With time, I was with Hubbard almost daily, for six or eight hours a day, minimum.

Those who are movers and shakers still within the church, and those who were movers and shakers and left, were my friends. I saw the whole gambit of emotions and human frailties. Greed. Avarice. Jealousy....

But what of Hubbard? Could I tell you of his Dodge Dart with the suped up engine and the Jeep Cherokee, and going to the mall with him in Indio to go shopping for MSH? This was before the termination of all contact to MSH due to the GO complications. Can I tell you of the negotiated payment to Sexton not to touch Suzette? Can I tell of the reaction upon his face when he learned of Quentin's suicide?

I could talk of all those things, and many more. Some flattering, most not.

But I tell you, I speak the truth. From experience.

Heck, the old man didn't believe me when I said I guarded his room all night and no one entered and changed his shoes. I wasn't believed then. The difference now is if I'm not believed, it doesn't matter.
First and foremost, Scientology was a marketing effort.

I remember once discussing what the next "released" level should deal with. Hubbard said go out and do a survey as to what people's wants were, what was the ruin, most pressing on their minds? Whatever that was is what the next level's result would be. And just tell them, he explained, through his marketing genius, if they pc didn't achieve that result, advise the staff to tell them that the next level would achieve that result.

I left when I realized that even Hubbard himself was a far cry from any of the results promised through clearing and OT. It took me years to separate the promises from the reality. I saw him in his daily activities, through his own ups and downs, illnesses, losses, frustrations, rages. I twisted my mind trying to make the facts fit into the promises. It didn't work.

NED was developed because Dianetics didn't work. NOTS was developed because NED didn't work.

None of it worked. Not one bit. Not on him. Not on others. Sure, it made some people feel good for a while. But did any of the avowed results ever come to fruition? Of course not.

Question asked by "Dulloldfart" (PAUL)

A recurring question that I see is why Hubbard allowed his books to remain as-is for 25 years or so when full of typos. My assumption is that he didn't give a rat's ass. Did he ever comment on that to you? (Not that he always told the truth!)

What I would find most interesting, would be any commentary on Robert Vaughn-Young's article on Hubbard being murdered. I don't expect any revelations from you, but I can ask.

Paul

(End of questions)
Cowboy :
Paul, hate to be boring, but the old man had no comment or upset or concern over perceived errors in his prior books. That concern only developed after his death. He did, however, occasionally have concerns over policy letters or bulletins that might have been issued erroneously.

One example; (forgive the semicolon) A bulletin was submitted for authorization, to be published in his name. Such submissions generally had skeletal structures of previous writings and expansion of concepts encompassing new "technology". In this submission, the old man found evidence of "squirreling". Upon investigation of the part of the new bulletin to which he objected, it was discovered that the part in question was a direct quote from an earlier bulletin, issued in Hubbard's name.

I was sent back to Flag to find the original bulletin, which had the "squirelled" section that was being quoted in the new bulletin. Find the squirrel who wrote the earlier bulletin in Hubbard's name, I was instructed, declare them and ship them out.

Unbelievably, deep in mimeo files of Flag, I found the original bulletin, containing the text which Hubbard said was the work of a squirrel.

The original bulletin was written by hand, and it was easy to recognize the flourishes of his handwriting. He'd written the bulletin a decade earlier, which contained the passages which he'd explained were the work of a rampant SP squirrel.

When I returned he asked if the squirrel had been declared and kicked out.

I studied his face, the thought fleetingly passing through my mind that maybe I should tell him it was he himself who'd written the passages which he now so venomously condemned.

But I didn't. I assured him the matter had been taken care of.

I have only rumors from reliable sources on his death, but nothing which I can repeat with any certainty.

~~~to be continued. (image of A cowboy, not the author of the posts.
{PS the writer "cowboy" looks even better ! :) )

Image

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Wieber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:28 pm

If I may, what does work is that the TRs definitely induce a highly euphoric hypnotic trance state.

Experiencing that state was my proof that Scientology worked. Years later, reading the literature on cults, mind control, thought reform and writing my narrative of what happened with my and deconstructing it, I came to the conclusion that what I experienced was indeed a hypnotic trance state. There are those who would disagree. That's OK. I am not here to proselytize.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:56 am

Cowboy shares the tales of his life with L Ron Hubbard.

Cowboy ~~ Part 3.
Hubbard and David Mayo

Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
Yes. What happened between David Mayo and Hubbard?

Cowboy::::::

Good lord, what a loaded question. I would, respectfully, ask that you be more specific and name the year. Their relationship was long and complex, with ups and down and turns and twists. So one cannot take a slice of time and necessarily say that was representative of the relationship as a whole.

Let me explain a couple facts of life near Hubbard;

1. Jealousies were always present, with subtle and sometimes not so subtle attempts at achieving power by those who worked with the old man. If one person became more greatly trusted, it would often create bad will among others. Such trust would be undermined by those with jealousies.

2. Everything Hubbard was aware of for many years was heavily censored. One couldn't give him bad news, or complete news. He made erroneous judgements based upon this.

QUESTION :
LA SCN Did Mayo save LRH life with auditing; Did LRH make Mayo Snr C/S Int?

Cowboy :::::
LRH was in a horrible state. He may or may not have died. He preferentially chose David Mayo to help him, which Mayo did, quite successfully. There were other factors involved, contributing to the situation. LRH believed in Mayo. He trusted him. He liked him. And Mayo had nothing but the best of intentions toward LRH. LRH felt that Mayo saved is life, and awarded him his deserved status accordingly.

The escalation of Mayo's position caused jealousies, serious jealousies, among others.

I bring up these two facts as they played heavily in the Mayo/Hubbard relationship.
it is my personal opinion, due to years in his position that the old man never fully trusted anyone.... well, except for two people. It is my feeling, however, that his distrust of everyone was played upon, which led to his lowering his opinion of Mayo. It was easy for him to believe that someone had turned, as, from his point of view, countless trusted people had turned through the years.

~~~~~to be continued

IMAGES : David Mayo, the most senior tech person in all of Scientology. Senior CS Apollo, Senior CS FSO, Senior CS Flag Land Base, Senior CS INT. Then an issue published that he was a suppressive person, the "darling of the psychs" and an infiltrator. "bird dog"


Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Karen#1
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

Post by Karen#1 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:42 am

Cowboy tells his story of Life with L Ron Hubbard ~~
Cowboy Part 4.

On being questioned on Quentin Hubbard death

Cowboy:
Wow, it seems you've heard more than I. I can only say what I observed. I was in the room when the old man was told that his son had just died. I don't recall that there was a period of time when Quentin was in a coma. It may have been so, but I don't recall it. It was obviously a suicide. Quentin was on leave, and having some troubles with the church, and his father. The old man was shocked. Surprised. But he got on with his work in a very short time, with no further talk of it.

NEW Question :
Originally Posted by afaceinthecrowd View Post
Thanks, cowboy.

I had a midships upper-decks office and cabin when El Ron had his heart attack and was one of the "early responders". I've written about it and my "Take" here on ESMB. I know you were very young then, but I'm curious what your "Take" was and what the "buzz" was amongst the messengers.

Were you part of the messenger detail that interacted with Cathy Cariotaki and Kima and the hospital detail during that time?

Face
Cowboy answers:
No, I wasn't directly involved in that.

The buzz with the messengers? Doesn't it strike us all, in a moment like that, that the demi-god might not indeed be godly, but constrained to physical universe rules like us all? Would it be talked about? No. Of course not. None of the physical infirmities, insofar as their spiritual implications, which I witnessed in other situations, could be addressed in a straight forward manner, for to do so would remove the old man from his vaulted status.

Look, one thing I learned in the church is that people are going to believe what they are going to believe, irrespective of facts. A Scientologist reading this post, who is in good standing, may well nay say my observations as the rantings of a former confidante. Former Scientologists reading this have framed their own opinions. And what I may write that isn't real to them they will toss out. And what they agree with they will keep.

Some even doubt my experiences are based in fact.

It is very, very difficult to summarize a person's character, especially one so complex as that of Hubbard, in a few paragraphs. In this culture we all try to pigeonhole someone into neat categories of good and evil. Hubbard couldn't be categorized into categories as these in a black and white fashion. Some of his bad was worse than many would suspect, but some of his good could be very touching.

I don't come here with any axe to grind.

There are a few questions the answers to which stablized my life and set me on a new course.

We can all read the definitions of clear and OT. Throw out the hype, the fabricated success stories, the baloney. Has anyone ever achieved the loftiness described as the end product of those processes? Hubbard? No. And of course no one else has either.

What we all have experienced are "ah so" moments of realization on various things. The relief of a misunderstood being cleared up and the subject being easier to understand, a breakdown and better understanding of the fundamentals of communication. But has there ever been a clear? Not that I know of. Apply a healthy degree of skepticism, and a "show me the evidence" attitude and everything crashes down.

Hubbard believed in his religion. His information of failures of the tech to do what was promised were consistently hidden from him... though eventually moments of daring would occur when someone could have a candid talk, and the whole structure of Scientology technology would be re-evaluated.

~~To be continued

Image
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Opinions & Debate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: INERGOEXENIA and 7 guests