Exactly, Don Carlos.
I wanted to add: thanks from me, too, Andreas, for putting up this site, and I'm much relieved that it is back running. ARS is so full of sporn and sporgery it's kind of disheartening. (esp for someone who is so computer-unknowlegable.)
cheers from a friend

Sammy:

When you talk about "Humanism" are you talking about a new organization that uses techniques similar to Scientology, such as E.S.T?

Could you please give us some more information to clear up this misunderstanding?

P.A

I remember taking the scientology test as a teen (out of sheer curiousity)and being immediately struck by the manipulativeness of the questions; they seemed so transparently aimed at my considerable adolescent angst and insecurity. When showed my apparently dismal score I couldn't help but laugh, quite the opposite reaction the "auditors" were I think expecting. Kudos to all who stay skeptical!

Speedwell - First of all, I'm not talking about Humanism as defined in any dictionary, which you know perfectly well. I'm talking about the dogmatic destructive mind-control cult which you were relating to us in your posting on this site several weeks ago in which you spoke about how people who hold beliefs that conflict with 'Humanism' are believers in 'Bogeymen'(your term) - as Scientology talks about anti-Scientology beliefs as being entheta and so forth. That's not Humanism, as developed by the Rationalist philosophers, which I'm quite familar with. They never used such terms. I'm not talking about the philosophy called Humanism, but the organized movement which has taken on that name. I'm talking, for example, about the Society for Ethical Humanism, just one of the manifestations of this movement, which meets in a house on Carlton Way in Hollywood smack between the Scientology Celebrity Centre and the Complex. That's the destructive mind-control cult I'm talking about which is run out of the Scientology Celebrity Centre. The one for which the Sea Org kids put up posters for the meetings, and the one in which OSA personelle - such as yourself - try to switch ex-Scientologists into other cults. That's the Humanism I'm talking about. Notice that you attack me right away for talking about 'Humanism', but you don't even mention all the people on this anti-Scientology site that are actually promoting Scientology - which is the main thing that should concern you at this point if you were a sincere Anti-Scientologist. You don't even give a damn about that so, obviously, you are part of that same OSA team. If Humanism is not connected to Scientology then why the hell are you even on this site promoting it all the time, anyway? Why don't you spend your time revealing the inner secrets of Scientology or even opposing Scientology in some way? Sincere Scientologists are on this site looking for info about the inner secrets of that cult. For you to be talking so extensively about any sort of movement on this site - with the obvious intention that we should join it - is totally unethical considering that we have all been victims of a movement called Scientology which promised ultimate answers. So you even inflicting this thing on us tells us a lot of about it right away. The sincere Anti-Scientologists are here on this site to oppose Scientology, but you divert us into another reality, just as Scientology diverts their targets into a religion based on a specific set of dogmatic teachings, even though they don't advertise this. Obviously, you have a secret agenda, a major part of which is getting people to join Humanism. Plus, the way you described your version of Humanism in your other posting makes it manifestly clear that it is a destructive mind-control cult - our of your own lips you explained, in effect, how 'Humanism' has 'the truth', and we outsiders don't have it. In any case, is there anyone who is intellectually awake on this planet, especially ex-Scientologists, who believes that there is a movement with a fancy name that is actually going to be positive in any way? Of course such movements are going to wind up being nightmarish traps run by an inner sect of racketeers - that's the pattern of things in these times. Scientology, Humanism...I don't want to hear about any such movements - and that's what most of us hearing now on this site! I don't believe any of the actual Anti-Scientologists on this site want to hear about other movements; it is inappropriate, to say the least, to be promoting your movement on this site, especially since you do not even state that it is in opposition to Scientology (and I have never seen evidence of Humanism - the organized movement - opposing Scientology in any way). I have no intention of going to any site you suggest - if I go to one of the Scientology sites I'm also going to hear extensive propaganda that has nothing to do with the reality of that movement, and bullshit about how they will help me and save the planet. Why don't you put a link to Humanism on the Cult Awareness Network site, as they used to have for A Centre For The World's Religions (ACFTWR) until they figured out that that it was a major goof to do this (I saved a copy of this link, since I suspected they would take it out once CAN realized that they were telling the world how Scientology was a member of a worldwide association of cults). Again, why are you on this Anti-Scientology site talking about this movement all the time? Why do you get so hot about it? It is because you are an OSA operative who figures that since you once had individuals who are now ex-Scientologists under hypnotic control, you can just as easily pull them into another movement and then reinstall that control - since you know that many of them are still looking for an ultimate answer from a cult. Not to mention that there is going to be some sort of money angle that involves putting cash into your pockets for new adherents to Humanism. Just as your comrades, Anonymous and company, figure that they can pull ex-Church of Scientology members into a supposedly 'renegade' version of Scientology. I live in Hollywood and it is already well known in the community of ex-Scientologists there to stay away from Humanism, because it run by operatives based in the Celebrity Centre. That's probably why you have to come on this site, Speedwell, looking for potential victims - it's getting harder to you to recruit as word about Humanism gets around. (I'm proud to say that I have personally alerted many people to the truth about Humanism and will continue to do so - including right here on this site). When you go to Humanism meetings, an operative there very quickly finds out if you have been involved in other cults, especially Scientology. First, he or she agrees with you that Scientology is terrible, but then they go through a special handling in which they do a quick switch, and attack you for putting down Scientology - a technique which we've often seen manifested right on this site. If you submit to this brutal, schizoid mind-control, then they proceed to pull you in another cult. Humanism itself is really a sort of 'transfer station' to other cults, but it is run by the same type of people - or even the same individuals - who form the inner core of Scientology. It must also be considered that there is a physical danger to ex-Scientologists who are considered to be enemies - they can show up at meetings at isolated houses that include Sea Org Security and then be disappeared or set up to be arrested for creating some sort of 'disturbance'. This is a real danger I am talking about. I will conclude by stating two things. Firstly, the evidence that Humanism is linked to Scientology is coming right out of the horses asses - by just the fact that they are on this site constantly promoting it and defending it all the time even though that is not the purpose of this site. Why else would this be happening if that was not the case? Secondly, there is no chance that there is not an OSA team operating on this site. Those team members are going to try to mock themselves up as Anti-Scientologists, attack people who are actually revealing info that is damaging to Scientology, and then try to pull ex-Scientologists into other cults which have been produced or taken over by RTC and which are operated by OSA. Does any ex-Scientologist doubt this? But by all means keep telling us about Humanism, Speedwell, because you people, during your pathological antics, always wind up revealing excellent intelligence data.

Was I supposed to read ALL that blather? If so, you flatter yourself.

Cut it down to a quarter the original length, use a few paragraph marks, hide your ignorance a little more, stop lying, don't use "ad hominem" attacks, don't attribute thoughts and statements to me I didn't make and don't agree with, and I MIGHT... just MIGHT... think about answering what you believe passes for an "argument."

For further reading, try www.positiveatheism.org.

speedwell

P.S. Let's move this to another thread now.

speedwell

Sammy, we really do want links and more facts. I do remember some mention somewhere of some CO$ people trying to infiltrate the community calling themselves "Humanists" so they can deny being "Scientologists." However, I can't find the link. I did a search on "Society for Ethical Humanism" and got zilch. I looked for Humanism & Scientology and got dozens of skeptical-type humanists, not Scientology imposters. I looked for "Society for Ethical" and got lots of links to various "Societies for Ethical Culture" So you may be bringing us news of a small group of Scientology pseudo-humanists that hasn't hit the media, internet, or even message board yet.
You may be concerned that the many people on the net calling themselves humanists are wolves in sheep's clothing. Some of them may be; many are not. The best way to put a humanist peddling "study tech" or "purification routines" is to ask him if he follows the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard. Even if he glibly denies it, you have forced him to lie.

Speedwell, I greatly respect Humanists and would probably be one if an organization were closer to my home. They have been heroic in speaking out for teaching evolution in the schools, for civil rights for atheists and agnostics, and for exposing cults. It IS an infuriating idea if Scientology tried to grab this word and twist it to its own purposes. You and Sammy both have a short fuse and you've found out how to piss each other off.

Sammy, your energy is admirable, you live in a GREAT location for a critic, and you ARE giving us some new facts. I really hope you keep posting. However, your calumny is wasted on Speedwell, who seems to be a genuine (and outspoken!) critic, based on her many earlier posts. Others and I have put up some very critical posts and Speedwell has never attacked us.

Sammy, I would like to hear more facts about "The Society for Ethical Humanism" in Hollywood. It's name seems to be a clever mix of two "brand names" - "Ethical Culture" and "Secular Humanist." If it is part of the CO$ it is likely to be neither ethical, secular, OR humanist!

Hmmph. Good point, Don, about the possibly bogus "Society..." It would not be the first time by far that Scientology has attempted to disguise itself as a (truly) ethical and decent organization in order to deceive the well-meaning "layman." Yes, I'm disgusted at the likelihood that Scientology may have attempted to counterfeit the name of an organization that would consider its twisted totalitarianism and oppression anathema.

(whine) But do I have to LIKE SAMMY TOO? arrrgh.... he LIES.

(headache and going to bed now; if I had scienosooperpowers I wouldn't have a headache neither, so there)

mmmph... speedwell

First of all, Speedwell - I don't want you to respond to my postings as I don't want to argue with you. My postings are to warn your potential victims from other cult movements that are part of the same Network that includes Scientology, such as the one you just posted about. Again, you convict yourself of being an OSA operative because all you do on this site is try to manipulate targets into other cults and put out postings which are chaff. Chaff, originally, was a term for spies who claim they are switching to the other side, but only tell the intelligence service of their new country harmless bits of information about their former country in order to try to convince them that they have truly switched sides, without actually betraying the other intelligence agency. That's what you are, Speedwell, an OSA operative who mocks themself up as an Anti-Scientologist so that you can attack the real Scientology critics and direct former Scientologists into other cults. Again, only a spammer would be continually posting links to other movements on this site. Furthermore, I have no intention of listening to lectures from other individuals telling me what not to post - I simply assume they are members of the spamming team. I don't know anything for sure about anyone on this site - the only people I can be sure aren't spammers are those who have truly posted secrets about Scientology which are damaging to that organization. For all I know, Don Carlo, you could be Speedwell - you're always defending her, and always right after I state that she is a spammer? Why would Don Carlos do that since Speedwell has never, never posted anything but chaff? How could an actual ex-Scientologist who is now an Anti-Scientologist not at least suspect that a person constantly trying to proseletyze about other cult movements is an OSA operative, considering what we're dealing with? By the way, Don Carlos, I observed that the last time you were defending Humanism and Spamhell - I mean Speedwell - you referred to this entity as a she. And you did it again in your last posting - "...who seems to be a genuine (and outspoken!) critic, based on her many earlier posts." Usually, when we don't know the sex of someone we refer to the person as a he. How do you know Speedwell is a female - you blew it there. You see, one of the things that gives the OSA personelle away is that they constantly talk to and about each other in a way which suggests that they know each other off-line- they can't avoid this because they operate as a very close team, seeing each other everyday at Scientology World Headquarters. In any case, I absolutely know with total certainty that Humanism is a sister cult of Scientology as I have been to their meetings and I have no intention, as I've said, of retracting my position. Since Humanism is a sister cult of Scientology, Speedwell is a spammer. By the way, Don Carlos, your buddy Speedwell (unless you yourself are Speedwell) was on this site several months ago, along with Anonymous and other members of the spammer team telling us how great the Purification Rundown is and calling anyone who critized the Purif a dummy. Also, Don Carlos, you just happen to pop on this site forty-three minutes after Speedwell's last posting to defend that person. Bullshit. You are the 'friend' who is supposed to be 'helping' me by correcting my erroneous ways. You yourself are constantly on this site posting chaff. I mean, the real Anti-Scientologists would be on the site once in a while revealing secrets, but for you and the other spammer team members it's obviously your steady job, assigned to you by OSA. Obviously either you two are OSA team members posting from Scientology World Headquarters or else you're one and the same person using different code names. As for your supportive comments about Humanism - no one is going to spend this much time and effort defending another group unless they're members of that group - especially on a site which nothing intrinsically to do with group. You cast doubt on my reports about Humanism being related to Scientology - even though just the fact that Speedwell is contantly promoting it on this site is enough proof - but I'm just supposed to accept your statements that Humanism has done wonderful things for our society (though I do believe they stand up for the civil rights of atheists and agnostics, since they consider a belief in an Eternal Spirit to be a 'bogeyman' When they take over will they the Sea Org Security round up all god-believers put them into the concentration camp that Scientology is building in the San Gabriel Mountains?). What did Humanism do to oppose Scientology in Hollywood - how about if you and your buddy Speedwell are specific about that? Did Humanism send any reps to the City Council meetings to stand up against any of Scientology's political conspiracies. They did not. You say, Don Carlos - "I looked for Humanism & Scientology and got dozens of skeptical-type humanists, not Scientology imposters." You got to be kidding. You actually think Humanism would depict itself on the web as being related to Scientology? As I've said, obviously Humanism does not tell the truth about itself on the internet anymore than Scientology does. How could you know from a Humanism internet site whether they're Scientology imposters or not? That's absurd. Can you tell from the CAN site that they're Scientology impostors? Is there a listing on the internet for Scientology and CAN? - of course not. The nternet site for A Centre For The World's Religions doesn't mention Scientology, but Scientology had a link to their site a few months back. Clearly, you're an OSA operative using verbal manipulation techniques. As for the Society for Ethical Humanism, it's this simple - if you see signs for this group or any other group with the name Humanism in it in Hollywood, or if someone invites you to one of their meetings, be advised that this is a Scientology-linked group designed to pull in ex-Scientologists and deal with it from that perspective. By the way, it's not really that Scientology started or even infiltrated Humanism, but that Humanism itself is a component of the organization that owns Scientology - and their personelle go back and forth. But I'll be getting into that issue later. I have no other motive for telling people these things except that I've experienced it myself. If I'm wrong, people will go to the meetings and see that I'm wrong - so why make such a big deal about it, Don Carlo? But I guarantee you that if you go to Humanist meetings it will be just a matter of time before their true nature appears and they start brainwashing you and trying to extract your life-savings, as in Scientology. In Hollywood, you'll even run into the some of the same personelle as you did in Scientology. But, look, Don Carlos, if you respect the Humanists so much then just go to their meetings - what do I care? Just ask Speedwell where the next meeting is, since you obviously know this individual personally. If I'm so wrong about them, why bother to keep defending them? - just let people make up their own minds and find out on their own if I'm right. Lastly, Don Carlo and Speedwell, don't feel constrained to respond to my postings. Feel feel to completely ignore me. Instead, go about the business for once of actually revealing some inner secrets about the Church of Scientology.

I also knew Speedwell was a woman.

As for Don Carlo, you think he is an OSA
agent? Don Carlo is one of the guys who keep
this board alive, the board wouldn`t be the
same without him. He is a guy who keep people
on this board.

Have to post inner secrets?
What`s wrong with a critical post without
a secret? I know I have posted some.

I am not sure what to think about you Sammy.
Are you a spammer? Or do you just see OSA
everywhere?

Sammy,

Just noticed the despute here. The subjects here sometimes do stray and get off topic and some seem to have topics they want to pursue unrelated to the fight against COS.

We are a diverse group of individuals with strong opinions on several issues. Although IMO too much time is spent discussing off topics, that's just my opinion. We operate here without getting into flamewars by agreeing to disagare.

We welcome you and your information and would like to hear more, especially with some backup references.

If what Don Carlo or Speedwell or any poster (including me) posts is contrary to what you know or expereienced, please tell us. WE do want to be accurate in what we say and not spread propaganda. IMO some speculate too much. But again, that's just my opinion. There is
rarely a need to go into personal attack mode. Most people, including myself, Don Carlo and Speedwell, sometimes descend into the pit of "attack mode" when we feel that we have been unfairly attacked or feel threratened, so I can understand your feelings here.

So it would be more productive here if everyone, including the regular posters, stick to criticising and pointing out the flaws in what was posted instead of personally attacking the poster.

Very few of us really know who or what the others are. It is more disrptive to the reason why we are here to make accusations which we have no way of knowing. The only way we have of determing if someone is a real critic is by what they post, and many times, it's only our own perception or guess.

Tigger

Criticizing humanists is like criticizing environmentalists - some are bad, many are good. There are some wolves in sheep's clothing - sometimes corporations form groups with names like "Protect our Shoreline" whose real agenda is protecting their INVESTMENT in developing the shoreline. There are some hard-core environmentalists (Earth First comes to mind) that are very anti-development and may break the law. But if somebody says "I am an environmentalist" he or she is likely to be just a middle-of-the-road tree-hugger, not a hypocrite or terrorist.

You may be like a concerned environmentalist who accidently went to a pseudo-environmental (pro-developmnent) "wolf-in-sheep's-clothing" meeting and became shocked and disillusioned by the hypocrisy and the lying. But that doesn't mean every environmentalist is a hypocrite or terrorist, and every humanist is a Scientologist. I personally believe that the org is shrinking steadily, especially after the Slatkin scandal. The OSA Scientologists are getting rarer and rarer (and more inept! ).

Sammy, I never was in the Org of Scientology so I can't produce inner secrets. I do read the news everyday, plus about eight weekly or monthly magazines. I check the Slatkinfraud.com, www.slashdot.org, and www.salon.com daily, since they often have news that relates to Scientology. One example is the recent lawsuit against Hare Krishna for abusing its young students - a case directly relevant to the abysmal day care and forced labor of under-age "staff" Scientologists.

I also have on my bookmarks science links like www.sciencedaily.com, www.nature.com, and the BBC's science and health section. They produce articles that are quite relevant to Scientology, like the one where people got a look at a poster of Bugs Bunny at Disney World, then visited Disney World. They "knew" or "remembered" that they had personally "seen" Bugs Bunny at Disney World, even though he is not a Disney character and would never be wandering around the theme park. This is directly relevant to Scientology's induced (in my opinion) "memory" of past lives and inter-uterine "trauma."

I go on this site frequently because I like to check to see if anybody has commented on my other posts. Good thing I checked this morning!

Speedwell has remarked several times that she is female. I forget a lot of things but I try to remember things like that. If I started refering to Speedwell as a "he," other regulars would spot the error and wonder if I were some kind of plant. I don't know her name or even what time zone she lives in.

Please read some of my earlier posts and you will see that I have never defended Scientology. I have a young relative trapped in the Org, and every post I do I think about this person and whether my post will help get my flesh and blood out of this abusive, youth-exploiting cult and scam called Scientology.

I wish I knew Don Carlo personally.

Let's take this to another thread. I simply will not respond in the Guest Book anymore. The Guest Book is for guests. Sammy can continue his unfounded accusations and paranoid name-calling in another thread if he likes.

Just one thought... Sam, I don't need to prove I'm NOT something. You need to prove I AM. Got it? (Oh, and remember to respond in another thread please.)

peace... speedwell

Maybe when we get our relatives out of Scientology, and we can drop being anonymous, we'll have a "OC reunion."

Happy 4 July all you US people.

Don Carlo: When you all get your relatives out of Scientology, write up some detailed instructions, so the rest of us can, too! I have spent 25 years not being confrontational, because I love my relatives, but also because it does no good. It's a little like trying to reason with a drunk; you're really reasoning with the bottle, not the person. Wrestling E-meters isn't my style. Ultimately, I guess it's only the bare-faced truth dawning in their OWN thought that will convince them, and what a glorious dawn that will be for ME!