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Tamaritha
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 819
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject:
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| marlysfan wrote: | | Alright, Tamaritha-I have tried to give you every benefit of the doubt for the past month, but in the words of Harry S. Truman, the buck stops here. |
Oh really now, so what have I done in the first place that required a "benefit of the doubt"? Are you about to roll out a list of my "crimes" now? I've had accusations of being a Scieno and whatnot, and everybody is sure I must be something, but all they're doing is regurgitating the assumptions of another person.
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Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | It's not you, it's not marlysfan and it's not Roan or RWT, who's been trying to make this problem "go away" by trivialising it until it festered to be this big a boil. |
I NEVER accepted the apology. This is what I wrote:
| Quote: | | Swift, I've not been paying too much attention to the threads lately, but I'm sure any transgression you've committed can be forgiven (ew, that sounded too Catholic...) Making a public apology is noble. I enjoy reading your posts, and I hope you continue to be a vocal member of the OCMB community. |
Read my posts before you comment on them, please. |
You said that you think anything he must've done, it can be forgiven. How is that not accepting the apology? Not accepting an apology would be stating that it is a matter between the parties, and you're out of it.
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I am not trying to trivialize anything, and I'm sure RWT and Roan aren't either-I can't speak for them, but I'm just trying to keep the peace so this board can remain a pleasant place to discuss Scientology. Not very easy to do when it's a bloody flamefest, is it?
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You could also alternatively kept the peace by er, having cut Swift off the bud at around 3 months ago when he was relatively mild, so to speak. Keeping the peace means prevention, not sticking a band-aid over a deep wound.
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Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | You know, Swift is like one of those serial rapists who turns up in court in the arms of a caring girlfriend who believes no wrong has ever been done by her dear boyfriend. Aren't you glad that it'll be at least some time before Swift does something horrible to you, and be aghast as people start cheering Swift on, forgiving him for you... |
What a sickening analogy, Tam. I wish I could kick you out of the female gender, because comparing a poster you happen to not like to a serial rapist is the epitome of misogyny. |
Dearie, where the hell were you when Clamdigrr was putting words in Suzannemarie's mouth going "is this the words of a woman" as though she was going to set up laboratory standards of what "women" were supposed to be? You sure do like to pick your battles.
Furthermore, who are you to say that the kind of damage Swift has caused isn't beyond friendly banter? A poster "I happen to not like"? Trivialising the subject by far, aren't we, considering I've had my own "who the hell is Tamaritha and what are her crimes" thread where people were trying to stick all sorts of labels on me only a while ago?
The only reason you're saying it's a very extreme and sick analogy is because you haven't experienced what it's like to have half the board jump on you each and every time just because you let those pesky facts in and have no empathy for it, as it were.
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Also, he hasn't done anything horrible to you, save for criticizing you ON A MESSAGE BOARD, which you PROVOKED!!! |
Oh, did I actually provoke it? Show me this incidence of "provocation" then. All I got Swift to do was to try and get him to apologise ... but of course, that's all old and tiring news, and ever since then, I absolutely must have provoked him, by countering his silly conjectures each and every time with an unfortunate fact.
Problem is, you could easily accuse me of provoking him, if I didn't do the same to anyone else. I am one of those pedantic people who live by facts.
So tell me, why is it that if someone criticises you for your fiction, you have to respond with a flame? Why is it that pointing out facts is not a good point of learning for you, but a legitimate case of provocation?
Is it that important to agree with a poster because "s/he's a good critic so we must support that person"? How is that person a good critic, if everyone is to nod along to that person regardless of what that person says? Eventually, considering everyone will praise that person for it no matter what, would that poster's content even matter?
To be honest, I think Swift would have appreciated it that much more if you were discerning of his wackier posts, and calling him out on it. It's *because* you guys insist that he's never done anything wrong that you guys have tarred his good posts with the same brush as the bad ones.
| Quote: | | If you are that injured by what someone ON THE INTERNET says about you, you need to stay off the computer or get a thicker skin. |
"If you are that injured by what some ON THE INTERNET says about you"... oooh..... let's flip the coin. So, you are saying that prevail, for example, should've kept a stiff upper lip when Swift went ballistic at him. I mean, how dare he get that *injured* by what some ON THE INTERNET says about him! Of course, everybody, FLAME ON! Marlysfan says if you flame and the receiver gets angry about it, that's totally the receiver's fault for not keeping a stiff upper lip!
It's by sheer chance that this totally contradicts the point about peacekeeping you made just a little above.... then again, of course, there are a different set of rules for those who are "provocative": they're fair game, aren't they?
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Get with the program-are you here to bitch and whine, or are you here to MAKE A DIFFERENCE? |
What program? There was a program? Is this some kind of critic course I have to take? Since when has OCMB become some kind of "let's all think alike!" camp?
Also, it's interesting how you say I have to "get with the program" in order to "make a difference" - I honestly do not see how sprouting platitudes about everyone regardless of whether they are saying could "make a difference", if everyone has to nod along and make sure to toe this line each and every time.
Thanks to all this, you guys are fairly sure that Swift is just another critic. Right? In a way, prevail has ironically given you guys a lot of relief when he "outed" Swift (by telling initials, initials for goodness sake), because - think about this possibility - Swift COULD'VE been a Scieno equally trying to feed the critics false information and totally off the track analysis about Scientology in order to discredit the critics. Thanks to prevail, it seems he ISN'T. Prevail saved his bacon.
(He seems to genuinely believe in his wacky theories though. I am not sure whether that's supposed to be a comforting thought.)
Do you know, being accepting and agreeing with some of Swift's wackier ideas - make us look as ridiculous as Scienos believing OT3, with all the volcanoes and xenu and engrams? That all of you insisting I or anyone who vehemently disagree with Swift have anger management issues makes it all that much more ridiculous?
| I'mglib wrote: | | Tam, You are one angry lady. Maybe it was your Scio experience, I don't know. Swift did wrong. Now he's holding out the olive branch. When someone holds out an olive branch, take it, don't poke them with it. |
How many times do I have to tell you lot who's so sure, like mate, that I must've been a lowly paid staffer - I was never a Scieno. Furthermore, if you're looking at these posts and thinking I am "angry", you're wrong. You just want to think that I am angry, because you'd rather believe that I am being irrational, as opposed to what is being suggested by J.Swift's "apology" - that he's done something truly ugly, ugly enough to suffer this kind of a backlash. And no, that something "truly ugly" was not merely what was seen on these boards.
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Swift, stop it. Stop apologizing. most of us have been guilty of snapping at people and being unreasonable. opinions and DEBATE. Well debates get ugly. Should we insult and name call? no, but we are human and it happens. also no one should be compared to a serial rapist. You owe no one an apology..... |
Ah, but you do not know whether "insults and name calling" was the entirety of it.
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Especially Tam. I think she owes you one. Tam, knock it off and grow up. ... You have some huge anger issues. get offline and RUN to a therapist. |
Why don't you try and see it for what it is, instead of *insisting* Swift *must've* meant no harm, post after post and flame after flame and blind accusation after blind accusation?
_________________
That's what you get when you bring Postulation into a MEST fight. |
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Hubbard's Mushroom
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 8290
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject:
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"then again, of course, there are a different set of rules for
those who are "provocative": they're fair game, aren't they? " Tam
You've certainly shown that by your fair gaming.
" Is this some kind of critic course I have to take? Since when
has OCMB become some kind of "let's all think alike!" camp? "
- Tam
since you came here and demanded we follow your
instructions for communications? |
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Ball of Fluff
Joined: 26 May 2002
Posts: 8011
Location: Cyberspace
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:
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| Crimson, perhaps nobody owes anyone else an apology, however, in view of what J Swift wrote about Patty P, I think it was warranted. Did you not read it? It was scathing. In any event,he has already stopped apologizing. This particular thread is a couple days or so old. |
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hboats
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 376
Location: Clara City, MN, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:
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| Ball of Fluff wrote: | | Crimson, perhaps nobody owes anyone else an apology, however, in view of what J Swift wrote about Patty P, I think it was warranted. Did you not read it? It was scathing. In any event,he has already stopped apologizing. This particular thread is a couple days or so old. |
So you don't think that the person who threatened to "out" J.Swift owes him an apology? I personally do. I also think he owes the board an apology for this threat. This was nothing more than an attempt to strongarm J.Swift into doing what he wanted. Although J.Swift did apologize and it looked sincere, the way that he was strongarmed into it was not right. The ends don't always justify the means.
Rick (hboats) |
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marlysfan
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1065
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject:
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Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | Oh really now, so what have I done in the first place that required a "benefit of the doubt"? Are you about to roll out a list of my "crimes" now? |
Don't be so dramatic...I'm not accusing you of anything except being particularly obnoxious lately.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | You said that you think anything he must've done, it can be forgiven. |
It's still not an acception of the apology. Also, vindictiveness gets you nowhere. Swift made a mistake and apologized for it. I guess we could put him through an ethics cycle and force him to do amends, if that would please you.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | You could also alternatively kept the peace by er, having cut Swift off the bud at around 3 months ago when he was relatively mild |
Excuse me? Is my name Andreas? Do I moderate this board? I don't have the ability or desire to cut people off the bud.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | Dearie, where the hell were you when Clamdigrr was putting words in Suzannemarie's mouth going "is this the words of a woman" as though she was going to set up laboratory standards of what "women" were supposed to be? You sure do like to pick your battles. |
I was in New England for the majority of September...didn't catch most of the posts then. Sorry about that-from now on, I will read every single post on every single thread, being careful not to skip over anything.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | Oh, did I actually provoke it? Show me this incidence of "provocation" then. |
I'm not in the mood to go digging through your posts, but I do remember a few scathing comments you made to Swift.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | Marlysfan says if you flame and the receiver gets angry about it, that's totally the receiver's fault for not keeping a stiff upper lip! |
Again, you're putting words in my mouth...I never said that it was the recipient's fault. All I said was that if you are going to get so offended by a poster on a message board, you should avoid the internet.
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | What program? There was a program? Is this some kind of critic course I have to take? Since when has OCMB become some kind of "let's all think alike!" camp? |
Maybe something got lost in translation-by "get with the program", I meant stop whining and complaining and debate Scientology for once. Maybe even (god forbid!) picket! It's cozy in the armchair, huh?
Tam wrote:
| Quote: | | Do you know, being accepting and agreeing with some of Swift's wackier ideas - make us look as ridiculous as Scienos believing OT3 |
I never said ANYTHING about agreeing with any of Swift's ideas. Some his ideas I agree with. Some I don't.
I LOVE how you're so convinced that you're in the right when you've pissed off just about EVERYONE on this board... |
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Ball of Fluff
Joined: 26 May 2002
Posts: 8011
Location: Cyberspace
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject:
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| hboats wrote: | | Ball of Fluff wrote: | | Crimson, perhaps nobody owes anyone else an apology, however, in view of what J Swift wrote about Patty P, I think it was warranted. Did you not read it? It was scathing. In any event,he has already stopped apologizing. This particular thread is a couple days or so old. |
So you don't think that the person who threatened to "out" J.Swift owes him an apology? I personally do. I also think he owes the board an apology for this threat. This was nothing more than an attempt to strongarm J.Swift into doing what he wanted. Although J.Swift did apologize and it looked sincere, the way that he was strongarmed into it was not right. The ends don't always justify the means.
Rick (hboats) |
I was commenting on Crimson's post. That particular post did not mention Prevail and what Prevail did.
But, since you've asked me- Prevail's action was wrong. It was not a good idea, he shouldn't have done that.
I disagree with what Prevail did, though I think I may know why he did it.
Either way, I'm not the one to ask about whether Prevail should apologize or not. Prevail would be the one to talk to about that. |
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I'mglib
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 2729
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject:
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Tam,
In the interest of getting the facts straight, and being accurate and all that, since you find that so important ("I am one of those pedantic people who live by facts"), which it is, I would like to point out your frequent use of hyperbole.
Hyperbole is extreme exagerration, and as such it is highly inaccurate.
For instance, frequent use of the word always and everybody is often hyperbole. Here's an example:
"In the end, everybody will continue to tolerate this kind of behaviour. If Swift came back, posted a pile of turds, then started attacking anyone who dared call it a pile of turd, people will still cheer him on for it."
Clearly, not Everybody will tolerate posting a pile of turds and cheering. This is an excellent example of hyperbole.
Other examples would be comparing someone to a serial rapist or a holocost denyer. In fact, almost always when someone uses a holocost or Hitler comparison, it is hyperbole, because few things were as bad as that.
I could post many other examples, and if you request more, I will comply.
Now, in the interest of contributing to the accuracy and factual information on the board, are you going to:
A. Gracefully admit that you've been less than factual, and kindly indicate that you will make every effort to stop (as you would have liked Swift to do)
or
B. Become defensive, arrogant, attack back, rally your friends to attack, etc etc (as you claim Swift does)?
Thank you for your attention on this matter.
Glibby
_________________
"I dare you to call me glib." --Larry Anderson to Tommy Davis
Scientology and Human Trafficking? You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A4l-GItmxY |
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Tamaritha
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 819
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject:
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| I'mglib wrote: | Tam,
In the interest of getting the facts straight, and being accurate and all that, since you find that so important ("I am one of those pedantic people who live by facts"), which it is, I would like to point out your frequent use of hyperbole. |
Right, and you've been interested in getting facts straight since when? Only two posts ago, you were saying that Swift posting blatant fiction did not do any kind of damage at all.
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Hyperbole is extreme exagerration, and as such it is highly inaccurate. |
Maybe you shouldn't take hyperbole literally then.
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For instance, frequent use of the word always and everybody is often hyperbole. Here's an example:
"In the end, everybody will continue to tolerate this kind of behaviour. If Swift came back, posted a pile of turds, then started attacking anyone who dared call it a pile of turd, people will still cheer him on for it."
Clearly, not Everybody will tolerate posting a pile of turds and cheering. This is an excellent example of hyperbole. |
The problem is, while it may be a case of hyperbole in the general sense, on the specific example of these posters on the boards? It's not hyperbole. Every single person that has ever decided to disagree with Swift has had Swift go ballistic at them.
Clearly?! What "clearly"? precedent has already been deeply entrenched in these boards - look at Fred Durks, look at some of the stuff Arnie's detractors call "tinfoil hat conspiracies". No, I've never seen this example of "clearly", where *everybody* did not tolerate a pile of turds.
You're just *wishing* it was a gross exaggeration with no substance whatsoever, while you are a part of it yourself: wasn't it you who essentially posted "so swift said some fiction. who cares" a while ago?
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Other examples would be comparing someone to a serial rapist or a holocost denyer. In fact, almost always when someone uses a holocost or Hitler comparison, it is hyperbole, because few things were as bad as that.
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No, you just think nothing is as bad as the two aforementioned examples - serial rapist, holocaust denier - because you were taught to believe those two things were the absolute worst, you haven't seen anything as bad as it yet, and have no idea whether the things you describe of are, in actuality, "few". Serial rapists and holocaust deniers, as far as the spectrum of society goes, are actually pretty mild, and one semester of criminal law will guarantee a changed outlook of human nature.
You obviously have no idea what sensationalist fiction is going to cost Scientology critics, in a day and age where the cult is appearing more and more presentable partly due to other similar cults rising and partly due to its quietning down.
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I could post many other examples, and if you request more, I will comply.
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Here's the thing:
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Now, in the interest of contributing to the accuracy and factual information on the board, are you going to:
A. Gracefully admit that you've been less than factual, and kindly indicate that you will make every effort to stop (as you would have liked Swift to do) |
Did I accuse Swift of literally being a serial rapist, or his supporters as literally being holocaust deniers, or are you as blind as to what I am alluding, to insist upon "hyperbole"?
Swift has done terrible, disgusting things, and here you are, throwing all apparently commonly-held values to the wind including "no flaming" and essentially, being a front to Swift in an attempt to present him as being better than what he is. Hence, the analogy of the rapist's girlfriend appearing in court, hand in hand. "Oh, because he hasn't sexually assaulted me, he couldn't have possibly caused any harm to anyone!"
As much as Holocaust deniers, despite all evidence, pick on matters such as the apparent lack of prussian blue fallout after zyklon-B usage, and that burning bodies would have taken too long, and other forms of discounting survivors' firsthand tales in order to apparently "prove" that the Holocaust did not exist, or wasn't as bad as it is presented to be - all you are doing is picking on my words right now, as though that'll prove Swift to be the shining beacon of information he allegedly is.
You are using the exact same chain of thought as a Holocaust denier uses.
Perhaps, if you do not get up all in a rightous tizzy because you haven't literally done the same category of reprehensible acts, you would have seen what a sorry state you are in right now.
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or
B. Become defensive, arrogant, attack back, rally your friends to attack, etc etc (as you claim Swift does)?
Thank you for your attention on this matter.
Glibby |
Problem is, I don't have "friends" here per se, and so far, they haven't been rallied into attack mode so far, have they?
As to this "claim Swift does" - you've obviously ignored the obvious to be saying that, trivialising it to a "he said, she said" situation. You're always going to be on this "claim Swift does" spiel, because no matter how often the evidence is thrown in your face, it makes your life easier to blame others instead of your own inaction.
_________________
That's what you get when you bring Postulation into a MEST fight. |
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I'mglib
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 2729
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject:
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So, you're gonna do B, I guess.
_________________
"I dare you to call me glib." --Larry Anderson to Tommy Davis
Scientology and Human Trafficking? You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A4l-GItmxY |
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I'mglib
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 2729
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject:
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I’m going to make one more go at it, since I forgot to add obfuscation to the list of things in ‘B’.
Almost everything you’ve said re. your detracting from the accuracy of this board is not relevant. For instance:
-the amount of time I’ve been interested in it is irrelevant
-whether Swift or others do it too is irrelevant (and, by the way, what he did to Patty was wrong, and I have said so, but this, too is irrelevant)
-whether sometimes it’s ok to use holocaust or rapist comparison is irrelevant
-whether I'm in a tizzy or not is irrelevant
The fact of the matter is you exaggerate, and this does not add to the facts. As someone who is very pedantic and loves facts this should be something you would want to stop. Even if others do it. Even if no on likes you and everyone loves Swift and wants to eat his turds. It’s not helping the factuality of this board. Period.
Here are some more examples, incase you need them:
“That because [Swift] never dispenses with apologies, he never sees fit that people ought to receive apologies in general.�
“So, for every single person who dares to disagree with the pure fiction posted here, all they're doing is creating disruption?�
“you totally approve of people pasting fiction, and rejection any criticism of it.�
These are just a few examples.
Anyway, I hope you see my point here. If you’re going to get so incensed about “pure fiction� you better be darn sure you don’t post any yourself.
And if you’re going to insist that when people are called on it that they be gracious, then you should do so yourself.
Even Swift apologized.
So, what you should do is say the following:
“Glibby, ol’ girl, I see your point. I do tend to exaggerate to make my point. It doesn’t help the accuracy or the climate of this board, and I will try to moderate myself in this area. Thanks for pointing it out.�
One more thing. You keep referring to the notion that you don’t have many friends here. Maybe this will help.
Sincerely,
Glibby
_________________
"I dare you to call me glib." --Larry Anderson to Tommy Davis
Scientology and Human Trafficking? You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A4l-GItmxY |
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Hubbard's Mushroom
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 8290
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:40 am Post subject:
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Jeebus Tam,
You'd argue with a fence post. |
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Roan
OC Moderator
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 2053
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:12 am Post subject:
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Tamarithita... you've just been dismantled by I'mglib & Marlys!! 
How does it feel to have ZERO wiggle room?  ...oh, I forgot.. you'll still wiggle!
_________________
“The failure to condemn an activity is indeed, an offer of tacit approval.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke |
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programmer_guy
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 8813
Location: Somewhere far beyond the land of Oz.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:56 am Post subject:
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| Tamaritha wrote: |
Every single person that has ever decided to disagree with Swift has had Swift go ballistic at them.
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That's not quite correct. J. Swift never went ballistic on me. (Unless I missed a post... I don't read every post here). |
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Crimson
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject:
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| programmer_guy wrote: | | Tamaritha wrote: |
Every single person that has ever decided to disagree with Swift has had Swift go ballistic at them.
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That's not quite correct. J. Swift never went ballistic on me. (Unless I missed a post... I don't read every post here). |
Not me either. though i never incinuated he was the same as a serial rapist though either. seek therapy freak.
_________________
Crimson
I miss you Frankie. |
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Don Carlo
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 4379
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject:
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I've cautioned Swift several times about his fascination with sweeping dark theories and the paranormal, and he's never gotten sore at me.
My argument was that it's fine to have this fascination, but he either should
(1) quote other people about paranormal events or unproven events, as if he was doing a history or documentary about THEIR memories and beliefs. An extraordinary event should be attributed to a direct eyewitness, preferably Swift himself.
(2) set himself up as prophet/visionary who proclaims this and that RECEIVED WISDOM about remote viewing / telepathy/exteriorization/OT abilities, but is not attempting to produce NEWS about, say Ingo Swann. Cause he's got no new news about Swann.
(3) openly appeal for facts about unknown areas of Hubbard's life (like earlier child molestation) but if no proof can be produced, label his "conclusions" as speculation.
My concern has been that Swift will pour his heart and soul into a muddle of already-old-and-known-facts and starry-eyed-speculation-written-as-if-fact, and get his butt kicked by the bloggers, book reviewers, AND New Age fanatics. |
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