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 Post subject: OT III trivia - Fluffy to the white courtesy phone
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:03 pm 
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Fluffy,

You posted something like this on a few threads recently:

"It isn't til you get to OTIII that anything else is attempted to be addressed and, as I said before, I know of at least 2 people who said they did not have that incident. (known as Incident II)."

Here is my take on having Incident II or I as your own track incident:

It is possible to not have Incident II and still run OT III, because its the BTs that supposedly have Incident II, not you. I never once felt that I had Incident II or Incident I in my own past. Many of the other OTs who I talked to felt the same way.

According to LRH's theories I would think it highly unusual for a PC to have either Inc I or II on their own track, as the idea of those incidents (among other things) was to make a thetan weak, clustered with other thetans and unable to pick up a body.

Is that the impression that other OTs that you knew/know had?

I felt both Incidents were not "real" and I always felt dissociated from them. Of course now I do not believe either incident happened, so that may have something to do with my own experience.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:10 am 
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Hi, Galileo,
May I interject a couple of brief questions?

You've said: "...the idea of those incidents (among other things) was to make a thetan weak, clustered with other thetans and unable to pick up a body."

The OTs with whom I've discussed this described BTs as severely "degraded" (less able or weakened) beings who can't pick up a body on their own. And I believe I remember being told that all BTs are clustered. This would seem to fit with what you've just said above.

So far as you know, is there thought to be some fairly uniform level of degradedness among BTs, or - to put it another way - how wide are the variations in their abilities? And, if there are solitary (non-clustered) BTs, would degradedness vary with whether the BT is solitary or part of a cluster?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:25 am 
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Beats me.

Fluff? Anyone?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:05 pm 
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Yes, Galileo, this could happen. Could have someone with recall of this incident who wasn't even there- that it was the BTs with the recall of it.

I don't know as much as I'd like to about the two people who stopped at the beginning of OTIII and said they'd go no farther as they didn't have that- I suspect that they also had NO recall of it. Not personally, not BTwise, not anything.

Isn't that interesting that this would happen and happen more than once?

I think most people's concern is that maybe others are forcing memories they don't have. I don't know if this really happens but as an auditor I know it potentially could so it's both grounds for speculation and is a legitimate concern.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:34 pm 
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I'd like to know what the experiences were of scientologists who DID experience those incidents.

Also, if they didn't experiences them, that's the end of their bridge? Slightly confused here, despite what people have posted. What does that mean? If they do not experience an OT level which is supposed to be part of "the bridge," and then can't go any further up it, what happens then?

Do they still get regged for more "services?" Do they just stay wherever they are and do the less exalted tasks of saving the planet without higher "OT levels?" Does that mean they are destined to be "blocked" on the bridge? What happens to their "total freedom" then?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:31 pm 
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Fluffy says on the thread Moderator Nominations:

But they're not going to be able to do the OT levels (past II) if they don't have that incident. But then again, they wouldn't be considered to need to do them.

Songbird then asked of Fluffy:

Or does he leapfrog over III-VII, pick up at OT VIII and go on toward OT XV or whatever is now considered the top level?

Red emphasis mine.

I'd really like to see the answer to this question which Songbird posed, and since you apparently know that answer, could you please tell us, Fluffy?

I reposted it here as it seems to be more germane to this discussion thread than the other.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:10 pm 
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An even more confused Songbird asks:

Galileo: "According to LRH's theories I would think it highly unusual for a PC to have either Inc I or II on their own track...."

I thought that we are ALL supposed to have experienced these incidents. Or is it that the BTs are the thetans who experienced the incidents & have ever since been degraded and stuck in clusters ... then we show up later on the scene (arriving at Teegeeack sometime after the volcanic incidents) and we become affected by the incidents through the BTs that attach to us? In other words, for the BTs these experiences were first-hand, but for us they are second-hand (through the BTs)??

Maybe there were not actually very many thetans who were directly involved in Incidents I and II and transformed into BTs, but their effect has widened exponentially as they attach to us and we become "less able" ... and then our diminishment affects those around us?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:09 pm 
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And - is one still capable of going further "up the bridge" if they don't experience those "incidents?" :huh: Sorry to ask twice, but it truly vexes me.

I think I'd be really ticked off if I'd spent all that money to get to those incidents and then find they weren't "true for me" - and then - what? When all along I was led to believe there were X many OT levels and that I had been encouraged, nay regged, to "achieve" them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:18 pm 
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A good friend of mine who did NOTs and Solo NOTs in the Freezone said that uncertainty about past lives is very common, until you do NOTs. I wasn't willing to continue "up the Bridge" to test that theory.

NOTs was often perceived as the "answer" to all questions and the REAL producer of what was promised by Dianetics.

I have yet to meet anyone who did not do OT 3 before going onto the rest of the OT Levels, but maybe those special people weren't telling to keep that possibility a secret. My question is, "If you have no BTs from Incidents I and II, shouldn't you have no BTs at all?" Can thetans get degraded enough all by themselves, enough to cluster and not be able to pick up a body, but not as a result of implants?

Being OT is no protection from BTs. They stick where they stick. Some will have you believe that on the upper OT levels (BT Levels) you audit the other dynamics such as the eighth, and that actually might make you BT-proof. Sort of like spiritual insect repellent. Nonsense!

There are so many holes in the BT theory, its like a sieve IMO. But its brilliant in a way, because you can just make up whatever you want to fit into that theory. What really made me think it was a crock was the Date/Locate and other stuff used on BTs who would not "blow" on normal running of Incidents I and II. I found that Date/Locate stuff to be totally made up in my mind.

I think if I had wanted to I could have gotten a read and "blow" on "Is this BT a thermometer?" or "Did you cluster with a taxicab?"

I became very disillusioned with the whole BT story because the auditing is very flaky. It was during my OT auditing that I also started questioning the validity of the emeter and its reads. Lets face it, you don't know WHAT the damned meter reads on. Maybe it reads every time your gullibility goes up a notch. ;)

Maybe there were not actually very many thetans who were directly involved in Incidents I and II and transformed into BTs

Actually, it probably had to be quadrillions of BTs affected by Incidents 1 and 2 if so many of us have hundreds of thousands or millions of BTs on each of our bodies.

I have heard several OTs say, "I am a young thetan and only entered this universe in the last 10 million years or so. That could explain not having Incident 1 or 2 in your own past. Or maybe they were in another universe or sumtin, like in Star Trek.

Actually one question asked of stubborn BTs on OT 3 is, "Earlier Universe?" I have gotten good reads and apparent "blows" on some other weird questions I tried. Yes I squirreled, but LRH started it! ;)

Wouldn't it be ironic if the emeter only read on fantasies created in the mind, but not on perception of reality?

End of rambling.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:19 pm 
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Lets face it, you don't know WHAT the damned meter reads on. Maybe it reads every time your gullibility goes up a notch.

Excellent observation.

And the stories related by people who have "fooled" the auditor and the meter, for various reasons, support this observation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:22 am 
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Oh, they'd find other services to sell the person. The Ls for example, which are very expensive, very powerful and yet can be done at any stage in Scn.

I sometimes hear different Scn'ists talking about "other bridges", eg: concentrating on mostly "admin" or policy courses.

But, yes, the Scn bridge is predicated on reaching for OT. This means "operating thetan" which means someone who operates very well as a spiritual being. However, what it's COME to mean in the church is "elite" "higher than thou" etc. I am very sure most church members would be baffled to meet someone who had not attested to the mid and upper OT levels because he or she just plain didn't have anything that would come up on them.

Originally, Scn wasn't so linear as all that. In the old days, Hubbard probably would have created some kind of test or something to see if the person could OPERATE as a SPIRITUAL BEING. Instead it's become "Oh first you go like this, then you go like that, then you get this piece of paper, and if you don't have the money and time..." with accompanying social structure (within CofS).

This is what happens when arbitraries are employed.

Oddly enough, Hubbard knew this, and, fairly early on, tried to avoid this kind of thinking but later on ended up falling into it.

The real idea behind Scn is a spiritual journey on the way to recovering hidden/buried potential to act like a free, enlightened, happy, empowered being.

This original goal has been obscured quite a bit.

Of course *I* surely don't have to worry about it at all and I know others who also don't. But in the church nowadays, a bad situation got worse. It was already pretty arbitrary ridden. But now, you've got OTs being told they're not clear anymore, you've got people's certs being lifted who aren't in any Ethics trouble at all, it's just that they want them to redo EVERYTHING via Golden Age of Tech. ("GAT", as some of us call it). You've got DSAs signing off for people to go to Flag. You've got padded OT eligibility checks so that if you've not been party line enough, you really can't make it through on the first try.

And still, of course, high prices.

The Bridge, as it's called, already had arbitraries and things that weren't all that great, but it got worse.

So glad not to have to fuck with that any longer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:37 am 
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Congratulations, Fluffygirl. It must be a huge weight off of your shoulders. I can hear it in your words... Instead of the GAT, why not change it to the GAF? Golden Age of Freedom. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:49 am 
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Golden age of Fluff. (couldn't resist)

:)

It's just amazing to me that something that was SUPPOSED to be so flexible and tailored for the individual ended up so elitist and arbitrary.

Hey- should I change my phrasing from Indie or DIY Scn'ist to ORNERY Scn'ist?

hmmm...

;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:25 am 
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My wife knows that if I'm not ornery, I must be feeling under the weather. ;) When I croak, I want people to say at my funeral:

1. Damn, that guy sure owed me a lot of money!
2. Full of piss and vinegar right up to his last breath!
3. Phew! He's gone. Wherever he is now, I don't envy THEM!

heh...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:38 am 
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ROTFLOL!! Good one, TT :)

All the best,

Tory/Magoo!

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Free at LAST! Leap and the Net will appear! Make the Leap :)

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http//www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44
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