Specifically, how will the Co$ go down?

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
xenuphobe
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:57 pm

Specifically, how will the Co$ go down?

Postby xenuphobe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:25 pm

I'm trying to envision what the last few years of the Co$ will look like. Clearly, the intertubes and all the anon protests are paving the way for implosion, but I'd be interested in predicted milestones. Here are my predictions:

1. Individual "churches" will be consolidated to reduce expenses. It will be touted as a measure to better serve members, when in actuality they are selling assets to stay afloat.

2. There will be a couple big fundraising campaigns, but it will not be something to grab the headlines of any major news organization. Some will give, but many will not due to tightening finances. Income will continue to dwindle.

3. We'll start to see new "packages" intended to cluster expensive courseware and products into more cost-attractive offerings. Few will take advantage of these limited time offers. The church may be heavily in debt by now, but will never publicly admit it.

4. Due to more and more press and video on the subject of protests, the FBI will probe and find potentially criminal activity. This may include allegations of "parishioners" being held against their will at Gold, but possibly harassment, fraud, conspiracy.

5. As the news media starts interviewing current and past members, as well as anonymous, the Co$ will retaliate with a why-do-you-hate-our-religion campaign, only to fuel the fire. This will escalate quickly as shows like Nightline expose what's going on. DM will label them as hate and will use the word "victim" a lot.

6. DM will call to order the "last stand" operation: all scions need to come to Gold or the Ft. Harrison and protect what's left. This will come with holocaust-like predictions and outcry that the public has gone against religious people. Many scions will leave everything behind to fight for DM's cause. We might even see a 30 second TV ad on network television.

7. With enough evidence in hand to convict DM of conspiracy to commit fraud as well as a host of other felony charges, the FBI will raid the complex. DM will pull a Shawshank Redemption.

8. The remaining staff will act clueless -- just following orders -- and likely blame DM, the scapegoat who took one for the team. The idea that the FBI is going after a "religion" will be decried by many members, but by then the media and general public will know better.

9. There will be litigation going on for years. Members who claimed they were swindled will seek compensation from the Co$, but will not receive anything. The Co$, or what is left of it, will be liquidated in order to pay for attorneys. In an attempt to cover expenses, frivolous lawsuits will be made against anyone who releases anything that could be interpreted as copyrighted or trade secret. Past members can finally speak freely on TV about what was really going on for all these years. People will see that it was never a religion all a long.

10. Freezoners will then become mainstream, and those too heavily indoctrinated will join those. DM will be seen as someone who ruined a perfectly good religion for thousands, and sullied the great works of LRH. There will be a renaissance of sorts, with a more open version of scientology coming out of the ashes.

User avatar
SeeYaBye
Posts: 850
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:15 pm

Postby SeeYaBye » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:51 pm

I see the slow demise of the "church" being due to 1 through 3 of your points. The global financial crisis that we are going through, while horrible for so many good individuals, will actually speed up this circling of the drain, as the "church's" reserves have to be spent to keep things going, and as members no longer have the funds to keep pumping into the sinking ship. I don't think there will be any big legal happenings that bring it down. Continued applied pressure by anons around the world will keep fresh meat out of the $cientology meat grinder, so that of course ultimately greatly impacts the financial bottom line.

You also stated: "DM will be seen as someone who ruined a perfectly good religion for thousands..." Hey, the obedient flock buys into the "Church's" official BS propaganda hook, line, and sinker, so they will say that DM ruined a perfectly good religion for millions of people.
"The truth is the kindest thing we can give folks in the end." - Harriet Beecher Stowe

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10187
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Postby Wieber » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:14 pm

It's a very tantalizing thing to make predictions of how things will go down. I do think its a useful thing to do but, please, be prepared for unexpected random events.

This kind of thing has been referred to as "Murphy's Law." I like to think that coming events will tend to be affected by a "mule factor." This comes from Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

Another aspect of this is that it is relatively easy to be accurate about what will happen in a short time from now. For those things a long way off the activity becomes more difficult to be accurate.

Jaques Cousteau in one of his books, which I believe was The Silent World, discussed how a body under stress (in this case in very cold water) gives up. It always starts with the extremities.

scientology's extremities are small "orgs," missions and groups as well as individuals who have been away and inactive for a long period of time. Other types of extremities are their volunteer minister program and any activity they take out of the "orgs" and into the streets: body routers, book selling activities, stress test operations and field staff members.

This ties in with your prediction number 1. Consolidation may or may not actually happen but it will be used to cover up the closing of smaller entities. "Big Brother has increased the chocolate ration from 2 grams a week to 1 gram a week."

When small orgs, missions or groups close the story will be that there was consolidation to increase the effectiveness of an entity that has not yet closed. That third entity will then be promoted as the place to go where the delivery of "LRH's fantastic tech" is now better than ever.

I think prediction 2 is very accurate and we have actually seen that going on for some time now. The fund raising activity in scientology will increase in intensity and ruthlessness. Those people who will be attending the upcoming "IAS" event will soon experience this.

That "IAS" event will push the "necessity level" "button" very hard. Miscavige will demand that those still "in" scientology go above and beyond what they have done before. He will demand that they set aside their own personal needs to "keep scientology working."

We have already seen prediction 3 being done. This is an ongoing activity. We saw it happen with the release of the "Congress Lecture" series. This was the big thing in all the promotion until the release of "The Basics."

Miscavige announced the release of "The Basics" at least a year ago. Although I haven't heard of any rumors of something new coming out, I would expect a new release of some kind soon. I have no idea what this will be but it will be a "major breakthrough" that will "revitalize" all scietnologists and "speed up" progress on "the bridge."

I would predict a revamping of introductory courses and new releases of the "HAS" and "HQS" courses but with the shrinking numbers of new people coming in that is not a dependable source of a high level of income.

The new release will likely be something designed to get people into the "orgs." Getting people into an "org" makes them more accessible to registrars, book sellers, fund raisers, recruiters and so on. Whatever it is I think it will involve a collection of elements with a tiered pricing structure. The price points will be free, $50 to $100, $300, $700, $1500 and then, "what have you got?"

Beyond that, I think your predictions from 4 on are worth contemplating but I think there are things in play that we may not know about that will have an effect.

At this time last year I would never have predicted that Anonymous would appear on the scene. At this time last year I was anticipating the release of Andrew Morton's book and attempting to predict the effect that would have.

I can only guess how scientology will ultimately come to an end and what the aftermath of that will be like. I fear the worst and hope for the best. What will actually happen will probably be somewhere in the middle of that.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
J. Swift
Posts: 10212
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Los Feliz, California
Contact:

Postby J. Swift » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:45 pm

(The following is an edit/excerpt from a post I made on Don Carlo's thread wherein he asked, Will Clearwater close down as CoS membership plummets? ref: http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php ... ry&t=26106

I think what I wrote back then will become true: Scientology will become a boutique religion that caters to wealthy and emotionally damaged narcissists who have messiah complexes and need to belong to a Master Race. With respect to this scenario, Tom Cruise has proven to be the prototypical Scientologist of the Future. As wealthy, preening narcissists and Übermensch by right of wealth and power, Tom Cruise and David Miscavige proved to be far ahead of their time in the Scientology Cult. I see a greatly reduced future Scientology of 5,000 affluent and culticly-isolated people who basically create their own post-Scientology Apocalypse world, go underground, and become a secret society.

*****
Xenuphobe, you have articulated a logical way in which Scientology could wind down. I have an alternative version to consider as well.

Monastery Scientology

If I were DM, I would use the following strategy to handle Scientology's problems:

1. I would entrench Scientology as a religion focused exclusively on the super-wealthy and the famous. This customer base is Scientology's strength. What are the things that the insecure wealthy and the insecure famous covet? They covet their privacy and huge amounts of exclusive attention that is all about them. Scientology excels at offering such services. Scientology's wealthy members are willing to pay for Premium Mind Control while the masses must settle for the mediocre fear dished out for free by the media. As a side note, our politicians and the capitalistic media have kept their finger on the panic button for far too long. Either get the goddamned Apocalypse over with or drop the subject.

2. Scientology is radioactive in its present state. The Cult had a core meltdown on Feb 29, 2008 or thereabout.

2A. Scientology is now the religious equivalent of radioactive waste.

3. Assuming that I am DM, I am now living in a radioactive religious wasteland where the only protection is offered is by money. Therefore, I make two key decisions:

3A. I decide to take Scientology off the radar for at least three years in order for the radioactive slag heap to cool down. Talk about prophecy come true: Scientology has been through the media/internet PR equivalengt of Incident II. Planet Scientology has been laid to waste and Scientologists are too stupid to see that DM is Xenu.

4. As DM, I have built a resort-based religion that caters to the egos of the wealthy. My resorts and steaming ship are paid for, so all I need to do is to let the interest from my cash reserves and the sale of my faux-religious services pay my overhead for a few years while I let things cool down on the PR front. This is a tactical retreat, because I cannot win the war right now. My group cannot take any more exposure to truth. For the sake of my group and its members, we must, in effect, go underground in this time of "internet persecution." By becoming victims, we win. An Underground movement is inherently chic in this media age.

4B. I immediately end all European operations and cede the Continent to the Psychs. I retreat to the Big Island and let Europe be run out of Saint Hill. This is part of my larger plan to put Scientology into isolation.

4C. I reverse Scientology's historic course and stop all PR. I get off the internet big time. I go to a secure website for general dissem. All other data is delivered by US phones or US mail. In the US, phones and mail are federally protected. The critics can't hack my phones or my mail or they get to go to the assrape prison they all want to see me in, i.e. assuming I am DM.

4D. Low Tech suddenly looks very good as I revert to OT Phone Trees and the use of snail mail.

5. I open my resorts only to those who can afford my new -- and much higher -- asking prices, and I will not lower those prices. I cut a deal with my best 200 auditors to pay them a true living wage. I need to keep these people. My goal here is to create a scarcity of CoS Class VI - Class XII auditors in order to drive up my prices. I can always add more auditors as needed.

5A. I create the first Scientology Diaspora by turning away from Scientology Orgs all those who cannot pay. I cut a secret backchannel deal with the FZ. For a cut of the FZ profit, I give them the names/contact info of all CoS deadbeats that I have squeezed for every penny and have no more to give. I also agree to not take any legal action against the FZ for using CoS trademarks, etc. My logic is here is to offload all of the deadwood out of CoS and onto the FZ. I want the public to begin to associate its intense dislike of Scientology with the FZ.

5B. Alternative to 5A: For those who cannot pay for my ultra-exclusive Orgs, I make them become SO slaves, or, I go to a home-based and mission-based system to delivery of Scientology. Yes, I know that I, assuming I am DM and ruined the missions 1982, but now I see its gentle wisdom and its ability to compete directly with the Free Zone groups. (Note: Since I posted this on March 12, 2008, DM has in fact gone to the "Boom the Neighborhood" campaign. This networking of Scilons at the neighborhood level may be a prelude to a Cult tactical PR retreat or a new FSM regging methodology that is highly targeted. I suspect the latter).

5C. People who want advanced services and cannot afford my Orgs, do not get to become OT's. You heard that right: Being OT is now a privilege reserved only for the able, where ability is defined as money. If you want to become an OT, go find a way to get wealthy, or, I make you join the SO and serve at my resort Orgs. If you join my SO, you will get a special level called SO OT. OT is either paid for in cash or attained by a billion year contract. BTW, I dole out OT to SO so that a person has to stay in for at least eight years to hit OT VIII. They get only one OT level for each year they serve in the SO. If they blow thereafter, so what? They have worked for eight years for Third World slave wages.

*****
The math is simple. If DM can get 1,000 wealthy Scientologists per year to spend $50,000 USD each on Scientology, he has made $50,000,000 in tax free money.

If DM can get 4,000 upper middle class Scientologists to spend $25,000 USD each on Scientology, he has made $100,000,000 in tax free money.

That is the simple way for DM to make $150,000,000 in tax free cash. That is a boatload of money. DM's overhead is what? Maybe $50,000,000 a year for global operations?

If I am DM and can keep 5,000 people per year engaged in my new Monastery Scientology, it will survive forever. I will have also cogged on behalf of the group that the internet is a scary place and I will therefore keep Scientology off it forever. After all, the internet critics cannot attack that which they cannot find online.

1950 has never looked so beautiful.

/////
Last edited by J. Swift on Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
contact: scienowriter@gmail.com

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10187
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Postby Wieber » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:08 pm

Unfortunately for David Miscavige Anonymous buggered his real estate plan. He'll have to settle for a much smaller return.

I speculate the real estate plan was this.

1. Announce the "Ideal Org" plan.
2. Salt the plan with the purchase of three or four expensive structures useing IAS money.
3. Set the example with one "org" achieving "saint hill size."
4. Fund raise everywhere to buy new buildings that will be "ideal orgs."
5. Put the money from those fund raising efforts into accounts that can only be accessed by "management."
6. If the funds to buy a building are raised, buy a building.
7. Monitor this until the funds raised and the value of real estate purchased becomes very large and the morale of parishioners for "ideal orgs" wanes to a point where ethics, PR and events no longer have much effect.
8. Come out with a new "program." Some of the steps of the new "program" will involve the following: a. Selling off the structures that are inactive, less active or pending renovation. b. Transferring the "ideal org" money into newly purposed accounts and use creative accounting on those funds so that there will be an apparent increase in the overall total to impress the parishioners.
9. Still using creative accounting, pocket the profits and buy some new Italian custom hand made shoes and a new tailored tuxedo to be worn at events.

Prediction is fun, but I think what actually happens is often more spectacular. Anonymous coming on the scene is an example of that.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
Mewba
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:56 pm
Location: The Golden State

Re: Specifically, how will the Co$ go down?

Postby Mewba » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:33 am

xenuphobe wrote:
10. Freezoners will then become mainstream, and those too heavily indoctrinated will join those. DM will be seen as someone who ruined a perfectly good religion for thousands, and sullied the great works of LRH. There will be a renaissance of sorts, with a more open version of scientology coming out of the ashes.


I hope this part isn't true. To be honest I'm one of those that think the Freezone is continuing the con. They're entitled to believe anything they like of course. I think the whole mess is dependent on a "pc" being charged for the auditing thereby assuming it has value. Though the Freezone charges less from what I've heard, how about doing the auditing for free? Because they are still trying to make a buck from gullible people. And as we've all seen, people will believe anything.
Last edited by Mewba on Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ron Hubbard's the kind of person that would just as soon tell a lie as tell the truth.
--Me

Don Carlo
Posts: 11609
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am

Postby Don Carlo » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:31 am

One possibility is that the inner circle will just flee overseas, and live off secret bank accounts. Wouldn't it be ironic if they bribed a small Caribbean country to permanently dock the Freewinds there, go ashore frequently, and drink and gamble away their retirement.

Or, they hate each other so much that they blackmail each other into splitting the loot, and each goes into hiding.

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10187
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Postby Wieber » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:24 am

Don Carlo wrote:Or, they hate each other so much that they blackmail each other into splitting the loot, and each goes into hiding.


Robert D. Hare deals with this in Without Conscience. I am assuming that the "inner circle" of scientology to which you are referring consists entirely of psychopaths. That's harsh and I could be wrong.

Hare says that psychopaths tend to not like each other when they get together. They will work together but will not hesitate to betray each other when such an action serves their purpose.

If "splitting the loot" is deemed to be an unattractive option then we will be looking at a race to see who does it to the other person first. However they proceed, once those events start to happen, Davey will not necessarily have any advantage. Dommage!
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

Don Carlo
Posts: 11609
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am

Postby Don Carlo » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:32 pm

If Miscavige is drinking heavily, his crafty underlings (most of whom have more years of education than DM) could be stealing and hiding the money. Maybe that's why they put up with DM beating them. The longer they stay, the more likely Miscavige has a health crisis, gets arrested, or flees with a few million himself. Then they get the juicy hundreds of millions left, and fly before the lawsuits and federal agents arrive.

Can a critic, knowing about CoS events and activities, keep their eyes and ears open to report if DM has disappeared for, say, a month? If a big event comes and goes with no Dave, that might be a sign he has fled, and the CoS millions, that should be available for refunds and lawsuits, may be disappearing overseas.

Another sign of "take the money and run" would be CoS selling major buildings. I believe CoS has entangled itself with rich CoS donors on many orgs buildings, so they can't easily sell those. But big buildings for sale? That smells like defeat and a final swindle.

My CoS relative told me in the 1970's that renting houses was better than buying because houses accumulate memories of bad times and you can escape them by moving. It seemed muddled - this was before Hubbard told his followers to NOT talk about Scientology ideas, because members said things wrong or lost arguments. It sounded stupid to me, like Scientologists thought houses keep evil spirits, but I nodded and didn't argue. (Nonetheless, my relative bought a house in the 1990's after prices had skyrocketed - the dope). Still, I wonder if fear of bad vibes in buildings is a common belief and, if so, that's one reason why CoS keeps moving to new org buildings. If so, now we see it was a big mistake, since moving and re-financing have now made those org mortgages HUGE. With the credit crunch, CoS may not be able to buy new buildings, and may not be able to get youthful slave labor to renovate the buildings. Worse, Anonymous has picketed the new orgs and gotten cooties/evil spirits/engrams/body thetans/whatever into the building. So the financial crisis leaves CoS and its big donors entangled in overpriced orgs, with the echoes of Anonymous shouts, and bad memories lurking in every corner.

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10187
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Postby Wieber » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:34 am

There is a policy (isn't there always?) on whether to buy or rent premises for an "org." If I remember rightly the policy says that if there is political instability in the country to rent and if there is political stability in the country to buy.

I only read that policy once and it was long ago, so I stand to be corrected.

(edit)

I don't know if this is the place for this, but buying a building in order to have an "ideal org" is a form of "dev-t" called "having to have before you can do." (Good old "Chinese school.")

"Dev-t," pronounced <dev-tee> is a scientology contraction for "developed and unnecessary traffic." It's basically another way a staff member can get up a senior's nose and end up in a lower condition. There's a whole list of "dev-t" infractions. If someone has a copy, please, create a separate thread and post it as it could provide several web pages of amusement.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
lermanet_com
Posts: 4149
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:00 am
Location: Hop-Skip Away from Scientology TODAY!
Contact:

Postby lermanet_com » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:44 am

The wording of my previous predictions over the years went something like this:

When scientology collapses it will be as fast and surprising as the fall of the Berlin wall..

---------------

In May 2007 I wrote "The circle has been broken" LINK

In August 2007I wrote: "Due to their extraordinary ineptitude and the vast degree of public awareness achieved in the last decade, Scientology no longer requires my assistance to come to an end." I even wrote letter to David Miscavige..at that time, in an effort to try to salvage the assets of the sinking ship, before they were consumed in the coming maelstrom. And then came Anonymous...

I did not receive a reply from his lowness.

---------------

I don't think there will be a freezone movement, as there is too much information easily available regarding coercive conditioning and covert hypnosis..and the silly 'gains' in scientology are imaginary and at best like moving the furniture around in one's mind and then saying isn't THAT great??? Scientology's 'gains' are laughable when compared to techniques that are essentially 'cost free' such as meditation and risk free.

---------------

DM will not 'run with the money" - in today's banking world, is is now impossible to "run with the money" - it can all be traced, especially if everyone detests you...

I believe that the handful of core true believers left, may withdraw into their CST bunkers, to try to ride out the what they believe to be the end of the world, underground, living in holes in the ground.

I can't think of a better place for them.

The last wealthy scientologists who have not yet reached that level of spiritual integrity, ability and awareness that allows a person to read the materials about scientology on the internet will be offered extremely expensive bunks in the various undergound bunkers...in exchange for liquidating their assets and turning them over to the dwarf to overseer.

The lawyers are circling like sharks, plans are being made, in fact any ex member who has left staff within the last 3 years might want to send me their their names and a one paragraph summary of what they did where...and how to contact them. Confidentiality guaranteed. - but don't ask any questions cause i cant say any more right now.

Scientology at the last special brieifing #3 for true believers has told their members that they have discovered that The World Bankers are paying Anonymous. And most important of all, for the first time in the history of scientology, they have publicly stated that stats are down by claiming they were up 'before anonymous' appeared.

Empires of lies have no future, the dominoes of corrupt institutions to fall, will begin with scientology. This is called revelation.

Warmest regards,

Arnie Lerma
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON
WE COME BACK
for our friends and families
to get the out
before they end up here:
whyaretheydead.net

"Surfing on the winds of fate at the event horizon of the apocalypse since 1993"





i wrote that
Do you THINK scientology works?
Then read THIS PAGE here on XENU.NET

Don Carlo
Posts: 11609
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am

Postby Don Carlo » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:04 am

Miscavige might have a little property and a bank account somewhere outside the US, where he could run to. There must be cash that he grabs and hides somewhere. Even if he can't take millions, he might get enough to live on. But, unlike Hubbard, he doesn't own the copyrights, and nobody loves him, so in his old age there may be a well-paid bodyguard and maybe a housekeeper, but no underpaid messenger corp tending to him.

The real issue is what happens to the lawyers, the copyrights, and the files. Imagine if an impoverished Sea Org worker sold celebrity auditing files to the National Enquirer, and then HE disappeared with the money.

Whatever happens, it will be embarrassing and unseemly for the inner circle.

User avatar
GreatSunJester
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:48 pm

Postby GreatSunJester » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:48 pm

I just hope the cult goes out nicely. My fear is a headline on Drudge to the effect of "Heaven's Gate mark II" or "Gold Base becomes Jonestown" or worse yet, "Scientology takes muslim extremism to the final level, suicide bombing or forced exteriorization?". Then again, I have an active imagination....

Freezone becoming mainstream? I hope not. To me, the cult could be put like this:
The Church of Spiderman-ology. If you pay us for the use of a special wall, we will let you repeatedly throw your body against it until you learn to cling there like Spiderman.
The Cling-Zone. We will let you repeatedly throw yourself against any wall until you learn to cling there like Spiderman.
In Search of... a new sig!

User avatar
Mewba
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:56 pm
Location: The Golden State

Postby Mewba » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:39 pm

Don Carlo wrote:There must be cash that he grabs and hides somewhere. Even if he can't take millions, he might get enough to live on.


He could take millions. One million dollars in hundred dollar bills weighs 20 lbs.
Ron Hubbard's the kind of person that would just as soon tell a lie as tell the truth.

--Me

User avatar
lermanet_com
Posts: 4149
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:00 am
Location: Hop-Skip Away from Scientology TODAY!
Contact:

Postby lermanet_com » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:49 pm

Mewba wrote:
Don Carlo wrote:There must be cash that he grabs and hides somewhere. Even if he can't take millions, he might get enough to live on.


He could take millions. One million dollars in hundred dollar bills weighs 20 lbs.


In 5000 french franc bank notes 2 million US, will fit in one legal brown envelope.
Do you THINK scientology works?

Then read THIS PAGE here on XENU.NET


Return to “Opinions & Debate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests