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Charles Manson was a Scientologist - There was a

Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:37 am

Lermanet's Charles Manson Blog updated August 10th

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscan ... manson.htm
Last edited by lermanet_com on Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Vled » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:46 am

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting it...

I had heard long ago about Manson's supposed dealings with the Process - which was apparently a Scientology offshoot/hybrid. Do you have any documentation in regards to his involvement with that?

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E-Meter

Post by SuzanneMarie » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:51 am

If there was an e-meter at the Spahn ranch, it's possible to identify the owner by the serial number on the meter.

Chances are it was a stolen meter.

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Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:53 am

Vled wrote:Interesting stuff, thanks for posting it...

I had heard long ago about Manson's supposed dealings with the Process - which was a Scientology offshoot. Do you have any documentation linking to that?
Ive got a lot old news article about the process church and charlie manson, that I havent webbed yet..

I was just sitting down this evening to read Peter Lavenda's book and relax, and I just started reading the Forward and then went back to my computer and cranked up my .htm editor to update the Manson page immediately.

"one of his teachers said that, with Scientology, Charlie's ability to psych people out quickly was intensified so he could zero in on their weaknesses and fears immediately. Thus one more method was now stored in his manipulation tool chest"


I am curled up on the couch reading this book, i think it's worth other people buying too, especially because the author was sued by Scientology for the nine words I placed in the topic subhead. I'll be adding Lavenda's entry to the Scientology litigation for silence page tommarro.

I'll be back

Arnie Lerma
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Post by clamdigrr » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:58 am

Arnie wrote:
I was just sitting down this evening to read Peter Lavenda's book
I'm picking that up tomorrow, along with BarefacedMessiah.

Anymore book recs Arnie? Anyone? I already have A Piece of Blue Sky on backorder...
Go on now, go,
Walk out the door,
Just turn around now,
'Cause you're not welcome anymore...

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Re: E-Meter

Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:If there was an e-meter at the Spahn ranch, it's possible to identify the owner by the serial number on the meter.

Chances are it was a stolen meter.
Oh go tell Sylvia Stanard to go get some rest, okay, suzanne? There is nothing you can do, Scientology dropped the lawsuit, would you like to sue me? oops, you guys already did that..

Nou will have to spam the whole chatboard to move this topic off the front page.

Have pleasant dreams and a nice weekend, its a lovely evening

arnie
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Post by Kilia » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:24 am

Misinformation about The Process:

The Process held to a unique theology which worshipped God while loving Satan. Being an open and proselytizing religious organization, they were exposed to criticism by other Christians. Having such an unorthodox response to Satan, they were easily misunderstood.

A book about Charles Manson, "The Family", claimed that Manson was a member of The Process. The Church obtained apologies and retractions to the book after it brought about a suit against the publisher. Because of the time it took to bring about the retractions, a large portion of book sales had occurred; so many of the books (without retractions) are on shelves today. The connection between Manson and the Process has not completely been corrected. Manson was never a registered member of The Process. A group of Processeans visited him in prison and confirmed that he had never been involved in the local Chapter.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/process.htm

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Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:29 am

Kilia wrote:
Misinformation about The Process:

The Process held to a unique theology which worshipped God while loving Satan. Being an open and proselytizing religious organization, they were exposed to criticism by other Christians. Having such an unorthodox response to Satan, they were easily misunderstood.

A book about Charles Manson, "The Family", claimed that Manson was a member of The Process. The Church obtained apologies and retractions to the book after it brought about a suit against the publisher. Because of the time it took to bring about the retractions, a large portion of book sales had occurred; so many of the books (without retractions) are on shelves today. The connection between Manson and the Process has not completely been corrected. Manson was never a registered member of The Process. A group of Processeans visited him in prison and confirmed that he had never been involved in the local Chapter.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/process.htm

I dont trust those guys any more than I trust Gordon Melton's opines, I consider them apologists see what they say about Scientology!

The process church was founded by Ex scientologists, and actively sought scientology materials from active members, in was the first Freezone.. so to speak,

The orginal corporate name they wanted was the Process Church for Unification of Christ and Satan... that was not granted...
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Post by RealityWillTell » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:38 am

Amazing info there Arnie! :shock:

Image
Image
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Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:42 am

clamdigrr wrote:Arnie wrote:
I was just sitting down this evening to read Peter Lavenda's book
I'm picking that up tomorrow, along with BarefacedMessiah.

Anymore book recs Arnie? Anyone? I already have A Piece of Blue Sky on backorder...
Hubbard did not like President Eisenhower, and Eisenhower recammened that his own staff read a book called "True Believer" by Eric Hoffer, a longshoremen in LA

William Sargant's "Battle for the Mind" and hts other one are excellent, but hard reading..he is also demonized by Scientology (cant imagine why..)

Im also reading a collection of Milton Erikson's lectures... "My voice will go with you" Milton Erikson's Teaching Lectures
Which is HUGE... considering who he was and who Hubbard reallywas...

I have exiting scientologists read Victor Frankl's "Mans search for meaning"

And Dusty Sklar! read her book Gods and Beasts - The Nazi's and the Occult..
the techniques hubbard uses to sell scientology are right out of what worked back then, Dusty Sklar was sued for the last chapter whichw as about the Moonies... she did not know about Scientology ( because att he time, Paulette Cooper's book was in litigation etc ) after she found out about scientology, she told Paullette that had she known about them, she would have used SCIENTOLOGY for the last chapter of Gods and Beasts for the chilling contemporary paralells..
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Post by programmer_guy » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:56 am

Arnie,

Manson had very little to do with Scientology but any nutcase (like Manson) could claim this.

I am no apologist for CofS (to say the least) but using Manson's notorious character is not a good thing. Scientology did not make Manson into the way he was.

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Post by lermanet_com » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:15 am

programmer_guy wrote:Arnie,

Manson had very little to do with Scientology but any nutcase (like Manson) could claim this.

I am no apologist for CofS (to say the least) but using Manson's notorious character is not a good thing. Scientology did not make Manson into the way he was.
Having grown up in reform schools, and penitentiaries, he was trained by professional criminal minds, I bet his insight made it instantly apparant to Charles Manson, that Scientology was a useful tool to control minds. He valued it so much he acquired a scientology e-meter...so he could practice scientology tech.

What cannot be debated is that there was something in Scientology that a serial killer criminal mind found very appealing, useful.. it was a useful TOOL that empowered him, and made him capable of not just being a lone monster like Jeffery Dahlmer, but one who was able to create a group that would follow his every instruction and go out and do exactly what they had told them to do.

And they did.
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Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:22 am

From: ptsc -
Date: Tues, Jan 15 2002


Then you haven't even read Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi, which contains
extensive references to Scientology. C'mon, this is Manson 101 stuff. The
murder of two Scientologists was also very possibly Manson's work.

Incidentally, a Scientology critic here, Dennis Erlich, stated that he was
present when the orders went down in Scientology to shred Manson's records in
the cult.

Here's a post with the Helter Skelter stuff.


Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: an127...@anon.penet.fi
reply-To: an127...@anon.penet.fi
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]


For whomever was asking about Scientology & Helter Skelter:

I dug out my copy of Bugliosi's book (for the uninitiated, Vincent Bugliosi
is the guy who prosecuted the Manson gang after the Tate-Labianca murders in
Los Angeles in 1969; "Helter Skelter", a sort of code-word used by the gang,
is the title of a book he wrote with Curt Gentry about the case later. I
give it my HIGHEST RECOMMENDATION to anyone interested in courtroom drama
and/or strategy, cults, or 60s sociology. There's also movie, by the same
name, but I haven't seen it.).

Here's most of what "the Bug" (as the Mansonites called him) says about
Scientology or Hubbard:

All references are from _Helter_Skelter_, by Vincent Bugliosi with Curt
Gentry, copyright 1974, W.W. Norton & Company Limited, New York (hardcover
edition). Single quotation marks denote quotations within the book. All
errors are mine unless otherwise noted with a [sic].

Upon being arrested in 1961,
"Manson gave as his claimed religion `Scientologist,' stating that
he 'has never settled upon a religions formula for his beliefs and is
presently seeking an answer to his question in the new mental health
cult known as Scientology.'
"Scientology, an outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron
Hubbard's Dianetics, was just coming into vogue at this time. Manson's
teacher, i.e. `auditor', was another convice, Lanier Rayner. Manson
would later claim that while in prison he achieved Scientology's highest
level, `beta-clear'.
"Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much longer
than he did in any other subject except music, it appears that...he stuck
with it only as long as his enthusiasm lasated, then dropped it,
extracting and retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning'[sic], 'cease
to exist', 'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma, reincarnation,
etc.) which, perhaps fittingly, Scientology had borrowed in the first
place." (pp. 144-145)

By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his constant inability
to stick with anything, a pre-release prison report mentions that
"Manson had no further interest in academic or vocational
training; that he was no longer an advocate of Scientology..." (p. 146)

Charlie was more interested in a dark offshoot of a former Scientologist; a
satanic cult:
"The Process, also known as the Church of the Final Judgement... a
very strange cult. Led by one Robert DeGrimston, t/n [true name] Robert
Moore - who like Manson, was an ex-Scientologist -- its members
worshipped both Satan and Christ..." (p. 224)

An almost amusing vignette came from Paul "Tex" Watkins (an incredibly
brutal and cold-blooded murderer) when Bugliosi interviewed him about
Manson's philosophy:
"...Manson had told him that while he was in prison he had studied
Scientology, becoming a "theta" which Manson defined as being "clear".
Watkins said that in the summer of 1968 he and Charlie had dropped into a
Church of Scientology in downtown Los Angeles, and Manson asked the
receptionist, "What do you do after `clear'?" When she was unable to tell
him anything he hadn't already done, Manson walked out." (p. 237)

Finally, Bugliosi sums up Manson's relationship with Scientology:

"I knew...that Manson was an eclectic, a borrower of ideas. I knew
too, both from his prison records and from my conversations with him, that
Manson's involvement with Scientology had veen more than a passing fad.
Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins, that he had reached the highest
stage, `beta clear', and no longer had any connection with or need for
Scientology. I was inclined to accept at least the latter portion of his
claim. In my rather extensive investigation, I found no evidence
of any kind that Manson was involved with Scientology after his release
from prison in 1967. [Footnote inserted in text: One of Manson's chief
disciples, Bruce Davis, was very closely involved with Scientology
for a time, working in its London headquarters from about November or
December of 1968 to April of 1969. According to a Scientology spokesman,
Davis was kicked out of the organization for his drug use. He
returned to the Manson family...in time to participate in the Hinman
and Shea slayings.]...
"Manson's link with The Process, or the Church of the Final Judgement,
is more tenuous...The leader of the satanic cult is Robert Moore, whose cult
name is Robert DeGrimston. Himself a former disciple of Scientology
founder L. Ron Hubbard, Moore broke with Scientology about 1963 to
form his own group, after apparently attaining a high position in the London
headquarters..." (p. 470).

And a final note, perhaps irrelevant:

"On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, 15, and Doreen
Gaul, 19, were found in an alley in downtown Los Angeles. The two...had
been killed elsewhere...then dumped there. Each had been stabbed over 50
times...
"Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists, the latter a
Scientology `clear' who had been residing in a Church of Scientology
commune less than two miles from the Labianca residence. According to
several sources, Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family
member Bruce Davis, who, like Manson himself, was an
ex-scientologist...[Davis] disappeared shortly after being questioned [about
another murder]." (p. 478)

All in all, pretty sordid stuff; but as you can see, not much evidence that
Scientology had very much influence on Manson. In fact, unless the
terminology has changed since the mid-60s, it seems like he didn't even
understand too much of what he was studying... or are terms like
"beta-clear" etc. real? Anyway, there's much more about Scientology in Ed
Saunders' _The_Family, if I remember correctly; if I can only remember where
I've stashed *that*...

Rickie

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Sylvia Stanard

Post by SuzanneMarie » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:39 am

Lerma wrote:

"Oh, go tell Sylvia Stanard to get some rest, OK, Suzanne?"

Go tell her yourself, you hoople, you've met her, I have not.

So whose e-meter was at the Spahn ranch, Arnie? Don't know?
Contact the people who do silver certification on meters and give them the serial number. Inquiring minds want to know why are you covering up this piece of vital data.

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Post by 'Alert' » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:07 am

WHOAH! Doesnt the subject of Manson get them Scientolobots goin? Not because Manson wasnt confirmed as having 'services' in the BigHouse, but because it's yet another dirty little secret Scientology wants hidden.
More on Charles Manson as a Scientologist
From: http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/docs/manson.html
GS-C Comm
GS-G 22 June 70
D/G Intell U.S.
Dear Mary Sue, COMPLIANCE REPORT RE: MANSON, BRUCE DAVIS There have been numerous new developments on this case and they are as follows.

An individual by the name of Steve Grogen appeared on our lines (PM). I received word that he had made statements that he was a member of Mansons family and therefore started some intell.

action, which at first consisted of talking to the girls he had been in contact with. By the time I had finished talking to them Grogen had been put away in jail for car theft. In spite of numerous efforts on our part it was impossible to get together with him. I had the girl he seemed to be most in comm with, journey out to the valley on four different occasions to talk to him and in spite of our best efforts he was never made available. He was either "in court" or the jail was undergoing extensive re- decoration. Of course we did not want it known that a member of The Church was trying to see him. At the same time this was going on we received word that two members of the Manson Family "squeeky Frome" and "Sandy Goode" were staying at the Viking Motel on 3rd and Alverado which is in close proximity to the org. We made no efforts to contactthem.

On 18 June 80 the following report was received by me.

Report of interview with Raul Morales, Re: Charles Manson.

According to Raul: Raul arrived in prison on McNeil Island, Washington in 1962 and became a cell mate of Lafayette Raimer allegedly a trained Scientology auditor (about Level I in Raul's estimation) and was introduced to Scientology at that time. Raimer was auditing in prison at that time and in one 10 man cell had managed to gather a group of about 7, all in Scientology. Charles Manson entered later and studied, did TRO etc. along with his cell-mates and received approximately 150 hours of auditing from Raimer. Processes used were CCH's, Help processes (Who have you helped-Who have you not helped) and other Dichotomy processes (Rauls terms, such as What can you confront, what would you rather not confront), Havingness (Such as "What can you have?" "Look around and find something you can have. Look around and find something you're not in." Rainer kept recor records of his auditing. Manson got super-energetic & flipped out when he'd been audited and would, for a time, talk about nothing but Scientology to the extent that people avoided his company. After a while, however, Manson was screaming to get away from his auditor (in Raul's opinion, he'd been severely over-run or something). He eventually managed to get put in solitary confi- nement to get away from his auditor. Eventually prison officials got suspicious of the groups strange activities and broke up the group. Subsequently, Raul was released from the prison in 1965.

Raimer's wife was in training here at the L.A. Org in 1965-66; she had disconnected from Raimer. Raul just found out yesterday that another friend, Marvin White, later sent Manson books (after the Scientology group was broken up) on hypnotism and black magic,

From: �Anti-Cult� - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/ <The.Galactic.Federation@ThePentagon.com>
Subject: More on Charles Manson as a Scientologist.
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:00:42 +0100
Message-ID: <iridatkrcibd5shf489g2p87p8jn021eeg@ARSCC.Sweden.Dep.OSA.Surveillance>
From: http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/deaths/uwc/helter.txt
From Bugliosi HELTER SKELTER -- page 647 On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, fiften, and Dorren Gaul, nineteen, were found in an alley in downtown Los Angeles. The two teen-agers had been killed elsewhere with a long-bladed kniife or bayonet, then dumped there. Each had been stabbed over fifty times.

Ramparts division Leiutenant Earl Deemer investigated the Sharp-Gaul murders, as did Los Angeles Times reporter Cohen. Although the two men felt there was a good possibility that a Familty member was involved in the slayings, the murders remain unsolved.

Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists, the latter a Scientology "clear" who had been residing in a Church of Scientology house. According to unconfirmed reports, Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family member Bruce Davis, himself an ex-Scientologist.

Davis' whereabouts at the times of the murders of Sharp, Gaul and Jane Doe 59 are not known. He disappeared shortly after being questioned in connection with the death of Zero.

On December 1, 1969, Joel Dean Pugh, husband of Family member Sandy Good, was found with his throat slit in a London hotel room. As noted, local police ruled the death a suicide. On learning of Pugh's demise, Inyo County DA Frank Fowles made official inquiries, specifically asking Interpol to check visas to detrmine if one Bruce Davis was in England at the time.

Scotland Yard replied as follows: "It has been established that Davis is recorded as embarking at London airport for the United States of America on 25th April 1969 while holding United States passport 612 2568. At this time he gave his address as Dormer Cottage, Felbridge, Surrey. This address is owned by the Scientology Movement and houses followers of this organization."
From Paulette Cooper THE SCANDAL OF SCIENTOLOGY p105 Another bit of publicity that the Scientologists are probably not too pleased with concerns the murder of three people in Los Angeles. Two were Scientologists.

According to *The New York Post*, all three were brutal- ly beaten, ritualistically stabbed, had their right eyes cut out, and were dumped 100 yards from a Scientology commune. One of the girls, Miss Doreen Gaul, nine- teen, who came from New York to study Scientology, was naked except for a strand of Indian beads. The boy, James Sharpe was fifteen years old. The third was un- identified. Doreen Gaul's father allegedly told a *New York Post* reporter that she had lately become disen- chanted with Scientology.

She was not the only one. For the past fourteen years, John McMasters, the first Scientology clear, ap- pears to have been groomed by Hubbard to take his place when he dies. McMasters recently wrote a letter to Hubbard, and sent copies to "suppressives" and Scientology enemies. Although McMasters declared that "I shall never withdraw my allegiance to Ron or Scientology" he announced that he was leaving Hub- bard's ships to spread Scientology in Africa, because of his "horror at what such people on the Sea Org could do to mankind." He criticized Hubbard and Scientology for their "savage and vicious ethics" and seemed partic- ularly disturbed over the death of the three Los Angeles teen-agers. Their deaths may have partially precipitated McMasters' decision to dissociate himself from certain aspects of Scientology. "Somehow we are violating our basic ethics for such things to happen to us," he wrote. "These last two ghastly murders of our students, one of whom is a clear, need never have hap- pened if we hadn't been mocking up [making] enemies so solidly." - Page 105
Scientology played an important part in the lives of Charles Manson and Bruce Davis. There is documented evidence regarding the teachings of Scientology to Manson even while he was incarcerated during the 1950's. It is reported Charles Manson reached the level "Clear" and was rather astute in his adaptation of control and manipulation techniques when dealing with other people. Manson used Scientology to answer questions with Diane Sawyer during the ABC television broadcast. Manson often expressed the concept of living in the "Now" and that term was used to describe the murder of Shorty Shea, when the killers said "It was hard to bring Shorty to Now".

Bruce Davis was an emissary for Manson when he traveled to England to work out problems between The Process and Scientology. Davis denied to the BBC reporter Bill Murphy that he ever traveled to Manchester England, despite the fact witnesses saw him there. Murphy had an acquaintance who actually witnessed Bruce Davis traveling around Manchester with a coven of witches.

Murder victims Doreen Gaul and James Sharp were deeply involved in the Church of Scientology and it was documented James Sharp conducted instruction to Doreen Gaul the night of her murder. He was taking Ms. Gaul to the level "Clear" and Gaul was also working on Engrams at the time of her murder. Bruce Davis lived in the same communal residence as Doreen Gaul while he was very active in Scientology. The owner of the residence was The Church of Scientology.

Just prior to the murder of Doreen Gaul, she made a telephone call to her father asking for an airplane ticket home. Mr. Gaul told Doreen he would send her a round trip ticket. She responded that it should be a one way ticket. Said Gaul to her father, "I think this stuff is all a bunch of crap." She was leaving the Church of Scientology and that fact was documented by a friend of Doreen Gaul who resided in New York who had offered her a job. For whatever reason, The Church of Scientology has played a very important part in the Manson saga. The Church of Scientology even offered a reward for the arrest and conviction of the person/persons responsible for the murder of Doreen Gaul and James Sharp.

Susan Atkins stated that a "man" use to come up to Golar Wash and have meetings with Manson. "I believe he was with The Church of Scientology" said Atkins. Paul Crockett, Paul Watkins and other Manson family associates spoke of the influence of Scientology on Manson. Best Selling author Ed Sanders made some statements about Scientology and The Process Church in his first edition of THE FAMILY. Legal action caused Sanders to remove that portion of his book in the subsequent editions. Scientology is an important part of the Manson story.
Really gets the juices flowin when one looks into the Charles Manson connection. Ive got some of this stuff on my page at www.myspace.com/scientology_facts
"If anyone talks about a "road to Freedom" he is talking about a linear line. This, then, must have boundaries. If there are boundaries there is no freedom." - Dianetics 55

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