Seeking non-USA TTCers/OOT's who went to USA for training

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Sea Horse
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Seeking non-USA TTCers/OOT's who went to USA for training

Post by Sea Horse » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:37 pm

Are there any ex-Scios out there who travelled from a non-USA country to the USA for training (to Flag or Los Angeles) as an outer org trainee in the Technical Training Corps for their org or mission back home? This would be someone who was a contracted staff member at a Class V org or mission, and who was sent for Flag training (or similar), to eventually be sent back to your org to work for 5 years (usually).

If so, I need some information for an important research project.

Can you please PM me?

TTC=Technical Training Corps
TTCer=slang for student training in the TTC
OOT=Outer Org Trainee, someone from another org or mission going to Flag to train
Last edited by Sea Horse on Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sea Horse » Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:04 pm

Still seeking info on TTCers/OOTs... but I received a bunch of info by PM on the subject of R-1 visas, which I thought of value enough to re-post here.

---------------------------------------

link from scio-exposed google cache

It includes a list of documents released by US Department of Homeland Security regarding foreign Sea Org members. Lists are from 2002 to 2007.

The list covers just about every document released by Homeland Security regarding foreign scilons trying to get religious worker visas.

---------------------------------------

To my knowledge, Co$ has only used R1 visas. Co$ would not want to use F1 (student) visas, see this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3915465/Stude ... rview-Tips
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Post by Sea Horse » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:50 pm

Still seeking ex outer org trainees.

Info contributed:

---------------------------------------

More links:
a google cache link #1
another google cache link #2
http://www.implu.com/lobby_client/19002

---------------------------------------

U.S. Customs and Border Protection Inspector’s Field Manual can be downloaded here (approx. 2 MB) :

http://www.ilrc.org/resources/CBP_IFM_Feb12008.pdf

excerpt from chapter 15:
(r) Religious workers.
(1) Classification: R-1 Member of a religious denomination having a bona fide nonprofit religious organization in the U.S., coming to carry on the vocation of minister or religious professional, or to work in a religious vocation or occupation.
Documents required: Passport valid for a minimum of 6 months beyond the period of admission, unless otherwise provided for or waived. Nonimmigrant visa (R-1) unless exempt. Letter of invitation describing duties of position in the United States.
Qualifications: Membership in a religious denomination for at least 2 years immediately preceding entry. If working in a professional capacity, the applicant must have a minimum of a bachelor’s degree in a related field, or its equivalent. All nonimmigrant grounds of inadmissibility apply. If working in a non-professional capacity, the applicant must be working for a tax exempt organization.
Terms of admission: Admit R-1 for a maximum of 3 years. Extensions are permitted for up to a total of 5 years.
Notations on I-94: Front: R-1 and expiration date of authorized stay. Reverse: Occupation and employer’s name and address.
Special notes: Limitation on readmission. Do not readmit an R who has spent 5 years in the U.S. as an R unless he or she has resided and been physically present outside the U.S. for the immediate prior year, except for brief visits for business or pleasure.
There is also a loooong section in chapter 15 regarding F1 (student) visa rules and requirements.
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Post by Sea Horse » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:16 pm

Wasn't anyone a TTCer from another country?

Info contributed:

---------------------------------------

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:Ytb ... _id%3D2116
Religious Visa Workers Fear Program Overhaul
Some Groups Critical of Proposed Regulations Intended to Reduce Fraud
...
The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology Western United States, which brings in ministers to work with non-English-speaking parishioners, has also weighed in. The proposed requirement that ministers be ‘fully trained’ is biased toward Christianity, assistant secretary Kenneth Long wrote in public comments to the immigration service.

‘Scientology religious teachings and counseling are arranged in a gradient fashion, proceeding from relatively simple and straightforward truths to ever higher and more complex heights of spiritual understanding and awareness,’ Long wrote. ‘Scientology ministers and ministers-in-training never cease in their study of Scientology scriptures.’
---------------------------------------

Kurzbans's Immigration Law Sourcebook lists 2 legal documents / rulings directly related to scientology and immigration:

Church of Scientology Int'l, Matter of; 19 I&N Dec. 593 (Comm. 1988)
Church of Scientology v. U.S., 113 S.Ct. 447 (1992)

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/aila/KZ11Cases.pdf (no need to download it, just for reference)
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Post by Ladybird » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:35 pm

Sea Horse, have you posted this on ESMB? I recall reading some Outer Org Trainee stories over there. If I can find the thread I will resurrect it and post your request there.

When I was at Flag I would guess at least 50% of the outer org students were foriegn.

To my shame, I participated in several reg cycles of rich publics to get them to pay for the training of auditors and staff for their country, including buying the trainees e-meters and paying for their transportation and room and board to Flag Crew.

Edit: I found the thread: A small piece of the story-me as an OOT

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=78
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Post by Sea Horse » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:38 am

Such cool info being sent to me. Someone sent me a link to:
SEP092004_01C1101.pdf

which says such wonderful footbullets as:
[The Sea Org] schedule is consistent seven days a week except Saturday mornings for personal hygiene, and is normally a 90 hour work week not including 2 1/2 hours of daily devotion or ecclesiastical training.
Last edited by Sea Horse on Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sea Horse » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:47 am

CofS states "Religion is an art." WTF!?!?!?!

Another great contribution from another OCMB reader:

Source: DEC232005_02B5203.pdf
Some CC Int bozo wrote:I . Religion is an art and therefore qualifies for national interest waiver.

2. Petitioner demonstrated that beneficiary's work is in the national interest. This was overlooked by the Service Center.

3. A religious worker is statutorily qualified to submit such a petition. The Director of the California Service Center did not properly consider her qualifications.
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Post by Benny's Friend » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:59 am

Religious Visa Workers Fear Program Overhaul
Some Groups Critical of Proposed Regulations Intended to Reduce Fraud
...
The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology Western United States, which brings in ministers to work with non-English-speaking parishioners, has also weighed in. The proposed requirement that ministers be ‘fully trained’ is biased toward Christianity, assistant secretary Kenneth Long wrote in public comments to the immigration service.

‘Scientology religious teachings and counseling are arranged in a gradient fashion, proceeding from relatively simple and straightforward truths to ever higher and more complex heights of spiritual understanding and awareness,’ Long wrote. ‘Scientology ministers and ministers-in-training never cease in their study of Scientology scriptures.’
Sea Horse, stay on this. You've kicked a hornet's nest here. Keep it coming.

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Post by Sea Horse » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:20 am

Thanks, Benny's Friend. Though I wasn't intending to get into visas for Sea Org members with my original request (which was about TTCers/OOT's), I've read a lot of visa stuff in my quest.

One thing that I see repeatedly is that Church of Scientology continues to assert that training is ongoing, as their argument against the denied visa decisions. However, those of us who were in Scientology know the more correct slant on this.

If you're going to hire someone to work in the HGC as an auditor, then they MUST have completed the courses up through Academy Level IV and its internship. All prior courses are prerequisites and do not qualify you for full time employment in an HGC.

Yes, Scientology will have the staff auditor continue with training, forever, but CofS is stretching the truth (lying) to immigration authorities.

Apparently, the person who is requested to come to the USA on an R-1 (religious worker) visa, must qualify on one of two counts: being a religious WORKER or going for a religious VOCATION.

What I get from the writeups (written by lawyers in the appeals divisioin ofr USCIS, formerly known as INS) that VOCATION would mean Sea Org membership. Trying to get a Sea Org member to come to the USA would require that the person BE a Sea Org member for two years prior to applying.

As for "religious employment" the person would have to have been trained for the job in advance of application and have worked in that sort of position for two years prior to application for visa.

Now, since the only orgs applying for R-1 visas are Sea Org orgs, then they can only mean "religious vocation".

Still, the person must be employed in a religious sort of job. Janitors, solicitors, administrators need not apply.

So tell me... how many Sea Org members did you know at Flag who worked in the Lemon Tree Restaurant (full time) who came from a foreign country and were doing this manual labor because their English was so bad they couldn't train for any other post? These would have to have been (a) Sea Org members for two years prior to coming, and (b) would have to be employed at FSO in a religious occupation.

How many Hungarians did you ever meet doing exactly that?

Gee... I don't recall any Sea Org activity in Hungary. No Sea Org orgs there.

Can you spell "visa fraud"?

Visa fraud penalties are up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 fine for each count.
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Post by pelagic » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:48 am

Hi Sea Horse,

I never went over on a R1, I went on a B1 visa to International Network of Computer Organized Management (INCOMM). After a few years I was kicked out of INCOMM and was posted as the Plumber for Big Blue and some of the local berthing building.

Of course, this would have invalidated my visa as my work conditions had changed. I was now working for Church of Scientology West US, instead of Church of Scientology International. I was plumbing, not doing I/T. The basis of my B1 visa application was that I was required for computer type work.

While being the plumber, we continued on my green card application that had started when I got to INCOMM. Not mentioning the fact that I was now a plumber and not working for CSI. We just did the app as if I still was.

Now, the R1 specifically states:
Religious occupation means an activity which relates to a traditional religious function.
Examples of individuals in religious occupations include, but are not limited to, liturgical workers, religious instructors, religious counselors, cantors, catechists, workers in religious hospitals or religious health care facilities, missionaries, religious translators, or religious broadcasters.

This group does not include janitors, maintenance workers, clerks, fund raisers, or persons solely involved in the solicitation of donations.
Its my understanding, especially at the International Training Org (ITO) is that if the students organisation does not pay for their food and board etc, the students are made to work for it in "exchange". This work typically falls into the categories I bolded above.

I am also sure there are a registra or two in the US on R1 visas, which also violates the conditions.

Happy hunting.

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Post by Benny's Friend » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:26 am

Thanks for weighing in, Pelagic. The risk you take is appreciated.

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Post by P. Don Ron » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:09 am

http://72.14.235.132/unclesam?q=cache:0 ... 3C1101.pdf
Furthermore, "training and apprenticeship" are
not a religious occupation; rather, they amount to preparation for future entry into such an
occupation. Not only was the beneficiary not a missionary during the qualifying period, it is far
from clear that she was fully qualified to be a missionary at the time the petition was filed. The
petitioner cannot file a petition for a student or trainee, on the expectation that the alien will one
day, qualify for the occupation upon which eligibility rests. Aliens seeking employment-based
immigrant classification must possess the necessary qualifications as of the filing date of the visa
petition.
Matter of Katigbak, 14 I&NDec.45 (Reg.Comm. 1971).

While the determination of an individual's status or duties within a religious organization is not
under the Bureau's purview, the determination as to the individual's qualifications to receive
benefits under the immigration laws of the United States rests within the Bureau. Authority over
the latter determination lies not with any ecclesiastical body but with the secular authorities of the
United States.
Matter of Hall, 18 I&N, Dec. 203 (BIA 1982);
Matter of Rhee,16 I&N Dec. 607 (BIA 1978)
.

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Post by Sea Horse » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:53 am

Ha ha ha. What a bizarre application. Thanks, P. Don Ron. That was fun reading.

So let's get this straight. The Scientologist entered the USA on a B-1 visa (business visitor) in 1994 for "a personal religious retreat seeking spiritual renewal." Uh... does that mean she wanted to do auditing in the USA? Or she was a BUSINESS visitor. Uh... which is it?
http://www.visapro.com/B1-Visa/B1-Business-Visa.asp wrote:B-1 Visa is Suitable For:

Participants to attend scientific, educational, professional, business, or religious conventions

Persons to work on specific projects in the U.S. and paid by a foreign employer

Business professionals to participate in commercial transactions (which do not involve gainful employment) such as negotiating contracts and consulting with business associates

Persons to undertake independent studies such as feasibility studies, market research or any such activity

Persons to attend professional or business conferences, workshops, or seminars

Business professionals to explore possibilities to set up a subsidiary of a foreign corporation, or to make investments

Personal or domestic servants to come to the U.S. with a U.S. citizen or nonimmigrant employer on B, E, F, H, I, J, L, M, O, P, R, or TN status

Technical personnel to install or service equipment pursuant to a contract of sale, or to provide after sales service

Business professionals to attend meetings as a member of the Board of Directors of a U.S. corporation

Persons to observe business, professional, or vocational activity as long as it does not involve any hands-on activity

Professional athletes to compete for tournament money and not for a salary

Professionals to conduct business consultations with business associates in the U.S.

Purchasing agents of a foreign employer to come to the U.S. to procure goods, components, or raw materials for use outside the U.S.

Foreign business persons coming to the U.S. in conjunction with Litigation

Persons rendering professional services in the U.S. that would otherwise qualify them for an H-1B visa, but who are paid for those services by a source outside the U.S.

Persons employed outside the U.S. who are paid from abroad, and who come to the U.S. to undertake an established training program that would qualify them for an H-3 visa

Employees of foreign airlines who are engaged in productive employment in the U.S. and paid in the U.S. who are not eligible for E-1 treaty trader status

Other persons such as for bona fide religious missionaries and crew members on yachts

Special situations involving Canadians and Mexicans such as Canadian truck drivers who are paid by either Canadian or U.S. firms and who transport commodities across the Canadian Border

Foreign companies to send their personnel to the U.S. to install or service equipment pursuant to a contract of sale or to provide after sales service

U.S. companies to bring foreign business consultants for training or expert advice

U.S. universities to bring foreign guest speakers or lecturers
Then the person "has been in this way on a sabbatical leave for personal redemption on a full time basis over the past several years." (1994-2001?)

Uh... that sounds like the RPF.

Then they want to apply for a "Special Immigrant Religious Worker".

Now the person is going to go for training (supervisor and ESTO training) and THEN be sent outside the USA for some things.

Uh... the IMMIGRANT visas are for people wanting to immigrate TO the USA... not emigrate FROM the USA.

CofS had this one wrong side to the entire time, and deserved this appeal being denied/dismissed.

Thanks, P. Don Ron, for the entertaining task of reading these ludicrous arguments from CofS.
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