A proposal for anonymous and us all…

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
someday
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A proposal for anonymous and us all…

Post by someday » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:53 am

Forgive me for not fully introducing myself previously. I am recently out and am still processing everything. I may or may not tell my story at some point but to be honest BFG, LBV and a few others have told the best parts already.

I wanted to throw something up for discussion though if I can.

It may just be me but there seems to be two distinct approaches that we as apostates and critics take to viewing the church and wanting to bring justice about.

One is scientology and hubbard’s teachings (though who knows exactly what they are anymore!).

Whilst we can all agree that scientology as a philosophy, culture, movement or whatever is without question wrong and dangerous it is also a question of choice. Granted how independent that choice is, on account of the level of coercion in existence within the church, is questionable.

But take disconnection for example. Ultimately this is a choice for the individual to make. I for one have disconnected with two members of my family within scientology because… well to be blunt they have been complete assholes. Of course should they prove themselves to be worthy of our families affections again and apologize for their despicable behaviour we’ll welcome them back with open arms. But my point is that someone disconnecting from another, horrible and wrong though it is, does happen irregardless of your “religion” saying you should or not. It is an arguable point.

Now before you jump down my throat and say that this does not give scientology the right to dictate this to their members, which I wholly agree with, at the end of the day it is that person’s decision. And therein lays the problem with the general argument with scientology.

All the main issues the average person has with scientology, and to that extant what anonymous has latched onto, are not what the people who are in scientology (or some of its sympathisers) have a problem with. Disconnection, RPF, Fair game, the general nuttyness of it all (xenu, marcab, DC10’s, whatever) keep most people out already. Those that stay in “choose” to disconnect, they “choose” to do the RPF or “choose” not question it when they see their friends there, they “choose” to applaud when they find out someone has been fair gamed because they were an SP and deserved it and they “choose” to keep believing the hype despite the ridiculousness of the 3rd rate Sci-Fi bullshit they are fed.

The astute among you will note that I didn’t say anyone chose to be fair gamed… I’ll come back to that in a minute.

What Mr. Oppenheimer, other sympathisers and the vast majority of scientologists don’t know is the horrible details of all this “crazyness.” If they did they would change their tune.

From where I sit the last few months has really started to chip away at this “live and let live” attitude both within and outside of the church. This is in no small part, if not entirely, due to anonymous’ efforts. And no matter what their origins are I for one applaud them as I believe history will as well.

Of course Arnie, Tory, Mark, Jesse, Stacy, Vince, Jenna, Astra, Kendra and all the other players have made this happen too.

I propose to you that the current movement has and will continue to shrink the number of scientologists and drastically reduce the number of raw meat coming in. Actually I think this was already happening but it has been accelerated exponentially.

So for the sake of argument let us say that that ball is rolling. The outer layers of scientology are being stripped away, the general attitude that it is harmless is changing and the scientology public are starting to get itchy feet, slowly but surely.

But what of the hard core inner group? The sea org? OSA? The Int base? What of the fair gamed who have no desire to be fair gamed but are?

That second approach or view of scientology that we have is entirely tangled up with David Miscavige.

I propose to you it is the most insidious elements of scientology that are being perpetuated by DM.

Okay no prizes for that, but the problem is unless he goes scientology may get smaller but it will get more and more vicious. Those of us who were stupid enough to wind up working with him know it will never get better.

“Alright already, you’re preaching to the choir!” you say.

My point is I firmly believe it isn’t telling the world how nuts scientology is or how hubbard’s policies are wrong that will bring about what we all so desperately want.

All these points are too easily argued by the sympathiser and the scientologist alike.

I propose to you it is telling the world what David Miscavige is doing that will be the most effective.

Think about it. Disconnection can be argued, Xenu can be argued, even the RPF can be argued. Okay Fair Game is a hard one to argue but they have a policy that cancels it so they will get out of it in court at least. But David Miscavige beating someone up? How the hell can you argue that? Wog, public, sea org member, whatever you are it doesn’t wash.

I suppose if you could pluck Mark Yager, Guillame Leserve or Norman Strakey out of their paradise they would deny it. But that is all anyone could do. Deny it. They can’t take the stand and say it never happened.

I guess what I’m saying is that although all that has happened over the last three months has been monumentally effective in exposing scientology’s darker side it is still able to be defended, only just, but there is still room for argument.

Take on David Miscavige’s specific activities and I think it will be much, much harder for anyone to argue. And in doing so you will continue to thin the ranks within the public scientology field and you will still turn the raw meat away but the added benefit is it will bring pressure to bare were it will really hurt.

Kind of like Luke Skywalker dropping his missiles into the heart of the death star. We can all run around throwing rocks at the damn thing but it is that inner core that needs hitting.

I don’t know if there are any plans for June but maybe we could make June David Miscavige month. After all he won’t be scuba diving in the Carribean this year by the looks of things.

June would actually be the perfect month to go after DM. It is the month he wallowed in his glory out on his $20,000.00 a day catamaran every year, scuba diving, getting a tan and being fawned over by all the rich scientology public.

And remember this Freewind’s thing is about to get massive. I for one am headed to the quacks in the morning and I’ll be one of the first in line to bring a law suit against the church if I have any trace of Asbestosis, or Mesothelioma. Bitty knew about it which means David did to. That alone could bring him down.

Anyways… do what you will with my post. No doubt some of you will rip into me for something or other. It’s just my opinion. An educated one I think but just my opinion.

My best to you all,

Someday

p.s. BTs2free; I’ll think I’ll find some nice scuba diving postcards and send them to the SP hall!

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Post by NattyP » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:29 am

Welcome, someday!

No rips, brotha'. Welcome to the 'bake and congratulations on getting out!

Good luck at the licenced, trained, board-certified physician's appointment you have tomorrow.

Ima sending good thoughts your way and hope your tests are clear. Now THAT's a clear your can celebrate!
John Carmichael: Are you a homo? Have you come out of the closet?
ANONYMOUS: You're wearing tweed in the summer and you're asking ME if I'm a faggot? Xenu please ...
John Carmichael: What?

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Post by ZoSo » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:31 am

Congrats on becoming free again someday. It's nice out here :D

I think your idea is pretty solid. The musical chairs story has been recently circulating around and it's been outraging every anon who has read it.

I know from my past reading that there is a lot of bizarre stuff around about guy, like the story about a gun in his office he has used to shoot pictures of people he didn't like.

The musical chairs story is pretty horrible. If he has done stuff like this before, he's done other equally crazy stuff.

Just a suggestion but if the OG can go through and consolidate some of their knowledge about DM in a thread that can easily be digested by us ADD hackers on steroids that would be really helpful.

Again, congrats on being free and sorry about your family, hopefully they'll be out soon too.

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Post by Prufrock » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:35 am

someday,

In your opinion, are the Co$ and DM so intertwined, that one can not exist without the other? In other words, does bringing down DM equal bringing down the Co$?

If not, how do you think a DM-less Co$ will look and, more importantly, behave? I have a hard time believing things could change all that much, as the paranoia and inhumanity are inherent to elron's policies.
"Just think, I turned to a cult for mindless happiness when I had beer all along." - Homer Simpson

"$cientology must be the only church without a religion." - Peter Schilte f.k.a. Navy

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Post by Don Carlo » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:53 am

Another bully would take over if Miscavige vanished. If Miscavige were found guilty of crimes, CoS would immediately disavow him and do a fake "reform." This is unlike the Unification Church, which survived Rev. Moon's imprisonment for tax evasion. CoS couldn't welcome Miscavige back from prison.

If the whole criminal conspiracy of CoS was unmasked during a Miscavige trial, that would start an avalanche of lawsuits and defections. Probably there would be some execs who flee with as much loot as they can grab, and some loyalists (those who have escaped lawsuits) start the "Reformed Church of Scientology" with no copyrights and no buildings. The remaining $^!#pile of buildings, copyrights, and other net assets is devoured by lawsuits and lawyers.

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Post by particlewave » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:01 am

someday

That was a very interesting post. My own experience (never belonging to a "cult", been a Christian for 30 years) I have known many members of cults i.e Jehovah Witnesses and others, Scientology is something I have been looking to do battle with more recently.(last few years)

I somewhat agree on your point on disconnection however there are certain disagreements on the point.

It is my experience that when you strip away the "fluff"which is doctrine and dogma, a cult structurally will be very similar to another cult.

Jehovah Witnesses like Scientology practices something like "disconnection", it is called "disfellowshipping".

I know many people that have been shunned by their family and or have been kicked out of their house, because they speak against the "cult'. That is wrong. One of my friends has lost all communication with his family. It is so bad that one day on the street he saw his mother after 8 years, she didn't even say hello!

The reason I mention all of this is because in your post you *HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD*. We must *FOCUS* on what is important and not get sidetracked. We are dealing with a cult plain and simple.

DM and the abuses in Scientology has to be addressed, has to be fought against, their FAIR GAME must be challenged.

Corroborating testimony of abuse against DM is damning and can't be ignored. The more we focus on what he has done, the more the average Scientologist looses that argument of "why are you attacking my religion?"

We are not attacking anyones "religion", we are attacking a cult.

BTW just to add, In my opinion,I think anonymous is very, very smart and they are learning as they go. They are focusing and they have loads of energy and ideas. I find them focused on the "abuses" and they are battling the "cult" and revealing it for what it is.

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I'mglib
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Post by I'mglib » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:15 am

First of all, welcome to the board, Someday. And congratulations on getting out of Scn.

Second of all, I completely agree with you about David Miscavige. In fact, I just posted over on Enturbulation.org that the theme for July should be David Miscavige. (For some reason they're already talking about July, and I think June is Operation SEA ARRRRRGH! ...oh those kids.)

Anyway, I think it's a great idea. We could have picket signs with his picture on them. We could have signs like

DAVID MISCAVIGE BEATS HIS STAFF

DAVID MISCAVIGE SQUIRRELS THE TECH

DAVID MISCAVIGE = CULT LEADER

etc.

I agree that he is the source of evil in Scientology, and until he goes, the evil will continue.

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WhiteRose
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Post by WhiteRose » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:52 am

Congratulations, and thanks for the suggestion of target. I appreciate that, but still, my target is the cult as a whole, its functions, its goals, its crimes.

I'm more than willing to talk about Miscavige and expose him for the psychopath he is. No one gets to repeatedly assault other people and subordinates without going to jail. No one.

That said, Scientology as a whole is a machine that I think must be dismantled piece by piece, and removing the biggest cog and replacing it with a similar-sized cog won't change what that machine is designed to do. It could just make the machine more effective, which is counter to my goals.

I will not be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow." I will not stand by and permit fair gaming. I will not permit the cult to continue to operate front groups that threaten to infiltrate my kids' schools, sue and destroy innocent mental health care workers, and so on. LRH's toxic writings and methods of replacing independent thought with his own twisted imaginings is dangerous in and of itself. What little there is that may be of value within it is not in any way worth tolerating operation of a domestic terrorism outfit of such criminal aggression. Any organization that encourages its followers to lie to the public in order to get them in the door is unworthy of the protection of religious designation.

I don't aim to leave an org operating, a volunteer minister interfering with legitimate workers at a disaster site (with pamphlets), a newsletter publishing, or a single sick policy unexamined and unpublicized. I will never, ever quit until the CoS IS down to that last core, and I will await the day that hardcore group does something illegal and will go after THEM. I'll be watching this group until the day I die, and my kids already know about it.

Of course, individuals are welcome to do as they wish in terms of auditing, etc., and believing what they want, but the machine...

There will be no machine before I quit. The public will know about every last cog, every last lever, every last power source that has gone into the machine.

DM is just one of the many fronts on which I intend to pressure this cult publicly. I hope that meets your approval, but if not, I will continue regardless.
“Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.” ~ Oscar Wilde

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Post by number 6 » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:23 am

Total overhaul or total destruction. No middle ground. Middle ground only gives the Co$ time to recover from the body blows this new wave of protests are giving the cult.
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someday
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Post by someday » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:39 am

Thanks for the replies and the kind words.

I apologise for not making myself very clear though. I’m not the greatest at winning arguments at the best of times.

I seem to have suggested that scientology was okay in some way. It is not, it never was and it never will be.

I was trying to make the point that it CAN be defended in an argument whereas David Miscavige’s long list of abuses is almost impossible to defend. I know this because I have argued both issues with scientologists and normal intelligent people. The scientology argument always goes back and forth with lots of “yeah but other religions…” or “it’s their choice” yadda, yadda, yadda.

But when I tell them about David Miscavige’s musical chairs episode no one argues it. They just stare at me and go “are you serious?”. I’ll go on to tell them the myriad of other stories. Always the same reaction “what the fuck?”. No one argues it, they just can’t believe it.

This isn’t particularly important to you all except for one other point.

Whereas DM is not scientology and his removal will not end scientology over night I believe it is with his absence that scientology will be able to be ended. As long as he is there scientology may shrink but it will dig it’s heels in and the battle will be endless. Well it will last a long time anyway.

Ask BFG, LBV, Tory and whoever else knows DM well what they think would happen to the church if DM was carted off. I think that so many people would jump ship at that point and those that don’t will be in such a daze that whoever steps up to replace him won’t stand much of a chance. And let’s be honest, who are the candidates anyway? There isn’t anyone who can match DM. The fight wouldn’t be much of a fight anymore. If we are in the process of knocking down Scientology’s Berlin wall at the moment I suggest to you that getting rid of DM will be like watching it turn into sand before your eyes.

Hence my suggestion that DM and is antics be the focus rather than scientologies weird policies etc. It may just be more effective in achieving your aims than you think.

Just my opinion of course…

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Re: A proposal for anonymous and us all…

Post by WhiteTrashMessiah » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:03 am

someday wrote:But take disconnection for example. Ultimately this is a choice for the individual to make. I for one have disconnected with two members of my family within scientology because… well to be blunt they have been complete assholes. Of course should they prove themselves to be worthy of our families affections again and apologize for their despicable behaviour we’ll welcome them back with open arms. But my point is that someone disconnecting from another, horrible and wrong though it is, does happen irregardless of your “religion” saying you should or not. It is an arguable point.
Call me selective, but I just want to address this one point.

I have never been a Scientologist, but I've practiced the "Wog" version of disconnection.

My family were all political assholes. Not political in the sense of believing in one political party or another, but the type where the family thrived on internal, familial politics.

It got so bad that I've not spoken to a family member in about 10 years.

Thus, I decided that I'd never speak to my family again, until they could have the balls to speak to me regarding certain personal transgressions. However...

This was done out of a complete and true "free will". There was no pressure whatsoever to coerce me to one decision or another. This is where Scientology differs. You have all those people on the inside, egging you on, either silently or directly, as to what course will "make it go right". My decision wouldn't cost me anything but what I already knew was directly involved... For a Scientologist, it's family, friends... maybe an SP Declare... Maybe you'll be "investigated noisily.... A whole buffet of side effects that should never have been there in the first place.

I skipped the "peer pressure" in my decision. It was a decision that, although the circumstances around it were FUBAR, the decision itself was pure

Scientologists, as far as I can see, do not have this luxury... Their decisions are coerced, guided, persuaded... dirty. It boils down to, if you don't want to do what the collective asksof you/tells you to do, you'll lose it and you should fear that.

My decision was made without that fear... I'm afraid I can't say that for all Scientologists.
MAYHEM. MUTINY. ENTURBULATION.

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Post by I'mglib » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:13 pm

I hope this idea gets a lot of support because I think it's a great theme for a protest.


Short list of people David Miscavige has beaten/hit:

Henning Bendorf
Jeff Hawkins
Marc Headley
Mike Rinder
Lyman Spurlock
Marc Yaeger

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Post by songbird » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:31 pm

someday wrote:I propose to you it is telling the world what David Miscavige is doing that will be the most effective.
I agree.
someday wrote:Those of us who were stupid enough to wind up working with him know it will never get better.
I disagree - you are not stupid. Most definitely not. :)

A warm welcome to OCMB, someday! Congrats on your recent escape from "the most ethical group on the planet." :wink:
I hope you will have more to say here.
May your new life back in the real world be a full and happy one. :sunny:
__________

"Breathe the free air again, my friend."
Gandalf to Theoden, The Lord of the Rings

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Post by Lisafer » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:44 pm

Someday, I'm so glad to see that you are out. Lawsuits or no, I hope you get a clean bill of health and a long and happy ever after.

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Re: A proposal for anonymous and us all…

Post by entheta » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:53 pm

someday wrote: I wanted to throw something up for discussion though if I can.
Please don't throw up on the board... that's MY job ...

(PS: good post!)

I think the "church" must go, in its entirety, because I don't think members really do these things (disconnection etc) truly of their own free will. I feel they are duped into following things which they later determine are NOT good things to do, and there are just too many stories of people who left the church and regret their prior actions, while under the belief (under the spell?) of scn.

IOW: I've never read anyone (yet...) who said "I disconnected from my father, then he spent 8 years in the hospital in pain and died of cancer, and boy do I feel good that I never talked to him again..."

See, like you say, if someone does something like the above for their own reasons (maybe the "father" in my strawman here was Hitler?) then that's their own business. But to disconnect for false reasons that the cult dupes people into (he was an SP! no talking to him) which you later find out is not true, that gets into the reasons why the "church" needs to go.

This doesn't mean folks can't read the books, hold the cans, and be happy... just quit lying to people about SP's and all that...

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[b]C[/b]annot
[b]U[/b]nderstand
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